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Morning brew

Another day, another chance for the Wizards to end their losing streak. Sacramento's Arco Arena will be the site of Wednesday's late-night doings. The Kings, much like the Clippers were on Monday, will be playing the second of a back-to-back. Sacramento is coming off a 95-88 loss to the Blazers in Portland.

In Wednesday's Post, Michael Lee picks up the pieces from Monday's loss to the Clippers.

Over on Bullets Forever, Mike Prada vents about the Wizards' latest loss. Truth About It breaks down Monday's game in 11 frames.

Nationally, ESPN.com's Marc Stein has the Wizards holding steady at 25th in his latest NBA power rankings. Also on ESPN.com, they are taking suggestions for an inbounds play for the Wizards. Submit your best set of X's and O's by Dec. 23 and ESPN says you'll have a shot at seeing your play used. (You must have an ESPN Insider account to get the full details.)

And in case you missed Monday's game or any subsequent replays, here are highlights courtesy of NBA.com:

Around the league ...

Tiger Woods is getting plenty of love from the NBA community, though whether he'll receive it remains a question. Charles Barkley says Woods has changed his cellphone number since the accident last month. Also, none other than Ron Artest offers Tiger his encouragement on his blog.

Seven games Tuesday night. Among the highlights: McGrady's back. Kobe can still score, even with a broken finger. The Suns are still undefeated at home.

All that, and more, in NBA.com's Daily Zap:

By Ed Guzman  |  December 16, 2009; 9:37 AM ET
Categories:  Morning brew  | Tags: Washington Wizards; NBA; Gilbert Arenas; Caron Butler; Ron Artest;  
Save & Share:  Send E-mail   Facebook   Twitter   Digg   Yahoo Buzz   Del.icio.us   StumbleUpon   Technorati   Google Buzz   Previous: The Wizards' costly errors
Next: The Other Side: Sacramento Kings

Comments

SAC on a b2b means another Wiz loss tonight :(

Posted by: closg | December 16, 2009 9:45 AM | Report abuse

we gonna see Dom on tyreke evans or will earl get that assignment?

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 10:08 AM | Report abuse

I hope someone from the Wiz read this, it's a humble suggestion.

AJ please stop taking so many 3 pointers, when you drive to the basket you're un-checkable! DRIVE DRIVE DRIVE, not so many 3's.

Coach, you stated you would play the players that play the best together...not necessarily the best players. May I suggest a change: 1st Quarter Play Gilbert, DSteve, Caron, Jamison, and Haywood. In the 2nd Quarter play Randy Foye, Nick Young, Dominic McGuire, Andre Blatch, and J. Mcgee. See what unit gives the best run, at this point there’s nothing to loose and you can evaluate in real game situations. Second half, make changes to the line ups, but give them a chance to earn it.

Gilbert, DRIVE to the basket...please relax at the charity stripe. All I see is Lebron coming to whisper in your ear...SHUT THEM OUT, play your game, you make $111M, man up and play ball.

DSteve, your shot is not the same since your back surgery...STOP SHOOTING SO DAMN MUCH, you play great D, but you don't have 3 range right now...move in closer or don't shoot.

Haywood, continue to bring it! (But set a bit better picks)

Caron, you need to dunk on these peeps a bit more, you know you can...you're that energy guy. Also, be more aggressive on D, last year you had a ton of steals...this year not so much...please get back to doing you.

Nick Young: Play within your game, you have a good 1st step, try to drive and dish, be the set up guy. If will create lanes in the 4th.

Team, drive to the basket and get the other team in foul trouble. The Boston game 3rd period should you (or should have) that games can be won or lost at the charity stripe. When the other team is in foul trouble, the lane opens up (basketball 101).

McGee, I would LOVE to see you on the court more...even playing beside Hay at times.

McGuire, you're one of my favorites...play in the paint, that's your game...consistently. Work on the follow up dunks.

I'm a fan...a BIG fan, but you guys are NOT playing TEAM ball or up to your full potential.

Posted by: Gooddad | December 16, 2009 10:12 AM | Report abuse

Many people say you can't build through the draft in the NBA. OKC seems to be doing a good job of it.

Are we looking at blowing up this team and building thorugh the draft, or do we simply need to trade for different veterens to provide better chemistry? Or is this team going to start gelling in January?

If we had a guard who could run the point and let Gil play the 2 it would be a huge difference. At that point Caron might even look like himself once again.

The stipualtion is that this guard would also have to be capable of guarding the other team's 2 on defense.

Posted by: MeviousMan | December 16, 2009 10:40 AM | Report abuse

Starting caliber PGs with the size to guard SGs aren't easy to come by. And teams that have them aren't going to give them up without a big return.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 10:47 AM | Report abuse

we need the players we have to play better, through working on flip's system and consistency from the younger players.

caron needs to stop dribbling and start the vaunted catch&shoot flip spoke of so much in preseason.

Gil needs to continue finding his way back at whatever pace works.

AJ need to keep doing what he do. Same with AB for the most part with a few added minutes so AJ doesnt fade.

NY, Foye, and JM have to be contributors for the team to suceed.

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 10:53 AM | Report abuse

Many people say you can't build through the draft in the NBA. OKC seems to be doing a good job of it.

The thing about that is you need more luck than anything. Cleveland would still suck if they got the #1 pick on a year LeBron wasn't in the draft. OKC got a 6'10" guy with SG skills. They don't make too many of those. They don't have too many teams build just through the draft. Portland has but what are they really doing?

Durant, Green, Harden and Westbrook is nice but they still have nothing in the middle. I guess they have to lose this season too to get that right?

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 11:08 AM | Report abuse

so true about LUCK. that's why i say leonsis aint gonna be no magic elixir that changes everything. plus, Gil's our core and that's how it's going to be for years.

so rather than talk of how can we move Gil for dwight howard (???!!!!)...we're looking at needing to improve with what we have

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 11:12 AM | Report abuse

Just imagine if the Wizards let Gil sign with the Kings, then Gil would be missing a couple of free throws against us?

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 16, 2009 11:12 AM | Report abuse

Tonight Is The Key Game

It sucks that weve started so bad and lost all these close games because even if we do go on a big run, we still only will be able to think about what couldve been. Like if we win 8 in a row to get to .500 then thats great but instead of being happy about being .500, we will moreso be thinking that we shold be 24-6 in the first 30 instead of the 15-15 we are now. Still, thats a long ways away but it could start tonight.

Call me crazy but I thought the Clips game would be the hardest game of the trip, even moreso than the Suns because of the matchups. With that being said, we shouldve won but we just arent playing well right now and it starts with Gil. The thing that keeps my hopes up is that Im a guy who always believes in the power of "1". I believe everything can change on one game, one play, or one whatever.

The Kings are a very beatable team and the Maloofs wanted Gil when he was a FA so hopefully he can show up. If we manage to win this game then I will feel good because its on National TV and then we follow that up with a National TV game in GS and if youre a Wiz fan then you know that Gil & Twan love to go off against there former team. They seem to always play there best ball against them, espically Gil. Then if we win 2 in a row then we go to the Suns the next night where again Gil always goes off and we matchup super well with them if we are playing good ball at the time.

All we need is one win and it could start it, espically tonight. If we win this game then I know that guys will be super pumped for the GS game. Gil & Twan wont let us lose that game and then we will feel like world beaters heading into PHX even though we only beat 2 garbage teams. The best case is that we win tonight and Gil looks good. If that happeneds then I guarntee you things will instantly turn around because I know they will carry that over to the GS game where Gil will either go for 40 or have like 30 & 13. Again, thats if we win and he plays well tonight. Either way I will settle for the win tonight and take it from there

Posted by: dlts20 | December 16, 2009 11:19 AM | Report abuse

The problem with building through the draft is that it can be a long, slow process that requires a lot of patience, something that, with Pollin in charge, this team wasn't in a position to ride out. Will they do it now? That depends on the new owner. But I think they've reached the point where it's pretty clear serious change is needed.

SDMDTSU , Portland and OKC are exactly what I'm talking about. They've done a great job of building with young talent. Obviously neither is a finished product and both have a ways to go, but they've put together the kind of foundation that makes topping the job off a lot easier. But both teams went through long periods of being really bad in order to get where they are. After 5 years of "wait until next year" and "as soon as we're healthy" hype ratcheting up the expectations, I wonder if the Wizards fans have the patience for that kind of slow buildup. Because it can be a really ugly process.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 11:20 AM | Report abuse

BTW, if we arent aggressive tonight and cant beat this team then IDK what to say. Our roster should kill there roster and we should drive all day with the big men they have inside on defense. They can play a little O but on D we should score or get fouled all day if we attack the rim but I can count on that with our team. Im hoping they start tonight and Im hoping Gil just tries to jump with all his might when he does because he's not getting any lift or burst on the left side of his body so therefore he has to go the extra mile and jump like he's trying to dunk a 12ft rim or something but I dont think he's mentaly able to do that right now

Posted by: dlts20 | December 16, 2009 11:28 AM | Report abuse

BUILDING through draft is about luck. However when you never take it serious you decrease your possibility of getting lucky.

Depending on your roster/cap situation you should use the draft to add muscle, an athlete, size , shooting, etc...

I have to admit, I am one that thinks INFUSING youth propels teams if don't have Kobe and co. or a comparable situation. Its just what I see around the league, i.e. Atlanta Hawks

Truth be told I would rather have Portland's situation. They are improving and people like Kobe, and Duncan, and Dirk can't play forever. They also have assets to trade over the years.

Thats another flaw in our philosophy, no one ever wants our garbage or salaries tied to.

Posted by: millineumman | December 16, 2009 11:28 AM | Report abuse

You cant rebuild with a $111mill man on the roster.


Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 11:30 AM | Report abuse

during the preseason, when the players were talking about 50 plus wins, I couldn't believe it. talking doesn't win games. get out there and play hard. let your playing do the talking. after the first game, i was excited and thought maybe the players knew something. but after 22 games, we see the truth. arenas is not close to the player he was. the scene at the end of the pacer's game with stevenson trying to do something so he would not have to guard dunleavy was sickening. that was the coach's fault first. but someone on the floor should have stepped in and fixed that. switch blatche over or call timeout. every game counts. i subscribed to nba league pass broadband after the first game so i could watch most of the wizards games from florida. i am almost at the point where i want to request a refund.

Posted by: garyhalperinyoga | December 16, 2009 11:30 AM | Report abuse

"You cant rebuild with a $111mill man on the roster."

Sure you can. He'd just be a very unhappy $111 mill man (at least until they get to the point they can unload him).

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 11:35 AM | Report abuse

SDMDTSU and divi3

I know the two of you are diehard Wizards fans who want to believe the organization knows best, but those of us who disagree with the organization are just as big as fans as you two are.

To build a championship team an organization needs to; make good trades, sign good free agents, and draft good players.

Teams like the Spurs got lucky with Duncan but, they also sign some good free agents and made some great late first round draft picks.

Boston drafted Pierce, and acquired Rondo and Perkins in a draft day deals (If you remember Rondo was drafted 3 slots behind OP and Perkins came out the same year as Hayes). They also traded for Garnett and Allen.

I could go on about Ernie’s lack of drafting good players, trading for average players and his free agent signings, but anyone without blinders on can see that!

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 16, 2009 11:40 AM | Report abuse

we made our bed, no we have to lay in it.

besides, the draft is a crapshoot. There are only cant-miss guys every once in awhile. We had the #1 pick and got Kwame, yeah mistake. But so what if we'd drafted Gasul? Great player, but proven to be a guy you dont build a franchise around.

last year we win 19 games, but only get the 5th pick.

stealing a guy like Roy from portland when he's up for $$$, or getting a Pau from a cheap team is more effective than the draft in many cases

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 11:41 AM | Report abuse

divi3

"WE" didn't make our bed "ERNIE" did, that's why the new owner needs to let him go!

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 16, 2009 11:47 AM | Report abuse

"but those of us who disagree with the organization are just as big as fans as you two are."

anybody on here who is clearly thrilled after losses (like dc_mann) is not a fan of this franchise.

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 11:49 AM | Report abuse

look at exactly how Boston ended up with KG and Allen, the entire confluence of events was not the type of thing that can happen here.

You know, the Celtics mystique coupled with Ainge and Mchale being old buddies.

The fact that so many players want to go to LAL, Bos, Mia...cant really hold that against us.

Bad moves by our GM, of course are our fault

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 11:51 AM | Report abuse

You're missing the point, divi3 . Building through the draft doesn't necessarily require getting a "can't miss guy." That only matters if you're trying to hit a home run the first time at bat. Building through the draft means acquiring the pieces that serve as foundation for a successful team. If you get lucky and stumble into a Duncan or Roy, so be it. If not, then you assemble all of the other pieces, make the team an attractive destination for FAs and set yourself up financially to take advantage when an A-list guy is on the market (much like Atlanta did).

Banking your team's entire future on some other team being foolish enough to trade a perennial All-Star for peanuts is a real crapshoot.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 11:53 AM | Report abuse

As for Boston, 3/5 of the starting lineup of their title team consisted of guys they drafted.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 11:54 AM | Report abuse

take away the 2/5 and they dont win squat.

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 11:57 AM | Report abuse

i see the injury to Gil as what completely derailed the franchise, not the fact that we had aquired him, AJ, and CB through trades rather than the draft.

Back in the heady days pre-injury, was anyone saying he was the wrong guy and that we should be looking elsewhere?

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 11:59 AM | Report abuse

Works both ways. KG and Allen don't get anywhere near a title without the contributions of Pierce (who was the MVP of the finals), Rondo, and Perkins. Moreover, if those guys weren't there, and didn't look to be a capable part of a successful foundation, do you really think Garnett would have agreed to the trade?

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 12:01 PM | Report abuse

I don't ever remember saying I think the organization is always right...but okay.

Teams like the Spurs got lucky with Duncan but, they also sign some good free agents and made some great late first round draft picks.

It's a lot easy to make a late 1st round pick look better with Tim Duncan on the team. Do you realize how many BAD picks the Spurs have made?

Boston drafted Pierce, and acquired Rondo and Perkins in a draft day deals (If you remember Rondo was drafted 3 slots behind OP and Perkins came out the same year as Hayes). They also traded for Garnett and Allen.

And look how long they sucked to acquire the assets that it took. Remember KG refused to go to Boston. Then they traded youth for Allen (more luck because the franchise was pretty much dead) then KG came.

I could go on about Ernie’s lack of drafting good players, trading for average players and his free agent signings, but anyone without blinders on can see that!

You could go on? Or you DO go on and on? You criticize with NO ANSWERS. I challeneged you and everyone else to put Ernie's moves against other GM's and show me how he's terrible...NOBODY CAN DO IT.

Stop whining and back up your statements.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 12:01 PM | Report abuse

"look at exactly how Boston ended up with KG and Allen, the entire confluence of events was not the type of thing that can happen here.You know, the Celtics mystique coupled with Ainge and Mchale being old buddies."

If I recall correctly, the Wolves wound up with some promising young players that the Celts had stockpiled (Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, Ryan Gomes, Sebastian Telfair) plus vet Theo Ratliff and two first round draft choices.

And some cash.

Looking at it that way, a Wiz fan might ask: what could the team get for all those young guys on our bench?

Posted by: Samson151 | December 16, 2009 12:03 PM | Report abuse

The bottom line is that teams don't become contenders by any one road or as the result of any single deal. A lot of pieces have to be in place, and there's no single formula for assembling them.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 12:04 PM | Report abuse

"Looking at it that way, a Wiz fan might ask: what could the team get for all those young guys on our bench? "

Not sure they could get all that much. The Wizards young guys, so far, appear to have potential to be nice complementary pieces at best. There don't appear to be any future stars among them. Jefferson was already a 20-10 guy before the Garnett trade.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 12:06 PM | Report abuse

SDMDTSU , Portland and OKC are exactly what I'm talking about. They've done a great job of building with young talent. Obviously neither is a finished product and both have a ways to go, but they've put together the kind of foundation that makes topping the job off a lot easier. But both teams went through long periods of being really bad in order to get where they are. After 5 years of "wait until next year" and "as soon as we're healthy" hype ratcheting up the expectations, I wonder if the Wizards fans have the patience for that kind of slow buildup. Because it can be a really ugly process.

Agreed. Even after the up and down after wins and losses...it's clear a full blown rebuilding wouldn't go over well.

When the Wizards win...it's happiness and joy.

When they lose...it's blow it up...everybody on suicide watch.

The top teams usually have a generational dominant player and they don't come around very often...and championship teams rarely build through the draft. It's usually a sum of the draft, trades and maverage FA signings...with some luck mixed in.

The Spurs dynasty is thanks to one thing...that's David Robinson getting hurt while Tim Duncan was finishing up his degree. Without that...NONE of that happens.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 12:08 PM | Report abuse

Key to stockpiling young talent = LOSE.

So if you people want them to rebuild...you should be happy they are losing now.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 12:10 PM | Report abuse

Almost forgot the Ray Allen trade -- he's become something of an afterthought to Garnett and Pierce.

Boston gave up Delonte West, Wally Szczerbiak and the rights to Jeff Green, in exchange for Allen and the rights to the Sonics' 35th pick -- LSU's Glen Davis.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 16, 2009 12:16 PM | Report abuse

It's true that Boston's kids were getting a lot of favorable press prior to the trades -- more than the Wiz kids. And a big part of Ainge's agenda was to keep Paul Pierce. Nonetheless, you wonder what a package of Butler, Blatche, McGee, and Young might bring -- somebody's unhappy big man with lots of moves around the basket?

Just kidding.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 16, 2009 12:22 PM | Report abuse

When the Wizards win...it's happiness and joy.

When they lose...it's blow it up...everybody on suicide watch
Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 12:08 PM | Report abuse
i think folks could deal with a tough start to the season if there wasn't such a big deal made out of flip and his 50 win track record and conf finals appearances. he walked into Lorton (i know it's closed now) talkin all that chit about what he did at the other jail, and got knocked on his arse as soon as he touched the yard. people are upset because they had issues with the coach hiring, issues with trading the draft pick earlier that they should have (i think they shoulda waited til closer to their turn to pick rather than before the draft), and issues with the players that we have. you add those factors to the fact that the organization and various media outlets had billed this team as a contender. Now for whatever reasons, they are not a contender. People have the right to be disappointed.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 16, 2009 12:24 PM | Report abuse

Key to stockpiling young talent = LOSE.

So if you people want them to rebuild...you should be happy they are losing now.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 12:10 PM | Report abuse

I respect u SD but this is by far your dumbest comment ever. You can build through the draft without hitting the home run with the number 1 pick as Kal said. What you do have to do is draft well in whatever slot you get. In addition to that there are always teams willing to give up too soon on promising young players. Cleveland drafter shannon brown; and while he is no superstar he helps the lakers. i think they signed him as a FA.

The main thing around here has been that the wiz don't want a young guy to be playing unless he's a Lebron,Howard type. I think that's the mentality and that's what we've seen. why draft a pg whe we can go into the season with our gang of sgs and 1 injured pg.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 16, 2009 12:29 PM | Report abuse

The fact that so many players want to go to LAL, Bos, Mia...cant really hold that against us.


Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 11:51 AM | Report abuse

If you mean "US" the fans you are right if you mean "US" as the organization than you are wrong.

Good players want to play for a either a winner or some place where they can market themselves.

If Abe would have been commited to making the Wizards a winning organization than free agents wouldn't have a problem coming here.

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 16, 2009 12:30 PM | Report abuse

"Nonetheless, you wonder what a package of Butler, Blatche, McGee, and Young might bring -- somebody's unhappy big man with lots of moves around the basket?"

They could probably get an Eddy Curry or a Zach Randolph type for that. But why would they want to? That combo isn't going to net a real franchise-changing foundation piece, and trading all of their young talent for a 2nd-or-3rd banana caliber all-star (to go along with the 2nd-or-3rd banana caliber all-stars they already have) is just more running in place.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 12:34 PM | Report abuse

The Wizards slogan has been the 3 C's

Character, Commitment, Courage

Under Abe it should have been

Complacence, Contentment, Ca$h

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 16, 2009 12:45 PM | Report abuse

Key to stockpiling young talent = LOSE.

So if you people want them to rebuild...you should be happy they are losing now.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 12:10 PM

I disagree.
Planning to rebuild thru the draft isn't a good plan.
Look at the past year.
We cudda ended up with Ricky playing in Europe-----nothing.
Or we cudda ended up with Blake G. maybe something in between or worse.
The big factor in the draft is LUCK.

Posted by: VBFan | December 16, 2009 12:52 PM | Report abuse

"Planning to rebuild thru the draft isn't a good plan."

Planning to rebuild solely through the draft is not a good plan. But then, neither is planning to rebuild solely through free agency or solely through trades. It takes a combo of all three to be successful.

"The big factor in the draft is LUCK."

The big factor in any kind of success in sports is luck.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 1:02 PM | Report abuse

"They could probably get an Eddy Curry or a Zach Randolph type for that. But why would they want to?"

Yep, just killing time on a slow news day.

Y'know who's getting shopped at the moment? Steve Blake. Of course we've already got too many guards. Don Nelson is looking (mildly) to move Anthony Randolph -- the Javale McGee of power forwards?

Of course there's always Elton Brand. Eddie Jordan is sitting him for extended periods, looking to improve the tempo.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 16, 2009 1:21 PM | Report abuse

The big factor in any kind of success in sports is luck.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 1:02 PM

True---but it's biggest in the draft.

Posted by: VBFan | December 16, 2009 1:22 PM | Report abuse

@dlts20,

Doesn't look good against the Kings tonight or against the Suns.
Kings are 9-3 at home and the Suns are the only team in the league undefeated at home.

Posted by: artiesliver | December 16, 2009 1:31 PM | Report abuse

"Y'know who's getting shopped at the moment? Steve Blake. Of course we've already got too many guards. Don Nelson is looking (mildly) to move Anthony Randolph -- the Javale McGee of power forwards?"

"Of course there's always Elton Brand. Eddie Jordan is sitting him for extended periods, looking to improve the tempo. "

According to most of the speculation I've seen, Miller is the guy Portland is most interested in moving. But, yeah, a PG isn't really the Wiz's prime concern. Brand looks like he still hasn't recovered from all the injuries and surgery. And given his age and salary, there's no point trading for him unless he can make an immediate contending-quality impact, and that seems not likely.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 1:39 PM | Report abuse

"According to most of the speculation I've seen, Miller is the guy Portland is most interested in moving."

I guess that's changed. SI claims the only reason they haven't been more aggressive in moving Blake is because Brandon Roy prefers him to Miller. Of course, that's a mighty powerful reason.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 16, 2009 1:41 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 2:00 PM | Report abuse

"The only thing left for me to accomplish is to win a championship... I do feel that this is an organization and a situation that can make that a reality."
-AJ from the SI article

And I thought I was wild eyed optimist.

Given that AJ is the most productive player on the Wizards and given that Brand is coming off injuries and his salary is a couple of million more than Jamison's this year and given that removing AJ from the mix and adding Brand would just require more adjustment time for unfamiliar players.
All that being said and accepted as more or less a deal killer; would not Brand's low post syle of play, apparently ill suited for EJ's Sixers, fit better with Saunder's Wizards and wouldn't Jamison fit better in EJ's Princeton offense in Philadelphia?

Posted by: midlevex | December 16, 2009 2:16 PM | Report abuse

my fave part is when he makes himself out to be some type of hero, sticking around this po-dunk town to finish what he started rather than leave for fame and fortune. Hey Idiot! (in the Dwight Schrutte voice) it's not your choice whether to stay or go. I also appreciate the highlighting of AJ being able to maintain his personal statistics through a 19 win season.

All I know is we've been in the same place or worse, messin round with the big 3. it's about time to do something different.CB and AJ are the only players whose role doesn't change. AJ's not asked to play exclusively back to the basket, CB is not forced to only catch and shoot. Gil is the one playing out of position, or rather in a offense where his skills don't fit the position he's being asked to play. If Gil can sacrifice his game, even while trying to get his game back, then i think AJ and CB should sacrifice too if this team is to stay together. How much of the same old same old? Even when we're winning, we only get to the first round, then look to the draft, then we come back talking bout renewed focus, the three Cs, defensive intensity, only to be left at the same place or worse off than before.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 16, 2009 2:25 PM | Report abuse

If Gil and CB played to the level AJ is we wouldnt be having any problems.

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 3:09 PM | Report abuse

I respect u SD but this is by far your dumbest comment ever. You can build through the draft without hitting the home run with the number 1 pick as Kal said. What you do have to do is draft well in whatever slot you get. In addition to that there are always teams willing to give up too soon on promising young players. Cleveland drafter shannon brown; and while he is no superstar he helps the lakers. i think they signed him as a FA.

I was definitely being sarcastic about the losing thing.

We all agree that Blatche is a great pick for his slot, McGuire could be a player (another 2nd round pick), We both agree Nick has talent, as well as JaVale. Butler even though he hasn't played up to standards this season was a steal for Kwame. And plucking Gil from Golden State was a decent move in my opinion. Stevenson was a cheap decent move.

I don't think Shannon Brown type players are that difficult to find...and they don't really bring you any closer to a championship.

I mean look at who Ernie drafted

2004 - Traded the pick for Jamison Peter John Ramos (bust), Ariza and Chris Duhon was drafted after him.)

2005 - Blatche

2006 - Pech and Veermenko (Pech never played and Veermenko hasn't come over yet)

2007 - Dom and Nick

2008 - JaVale (traded Bill Walker)

So for all that Pech, Ramos and Veermenko (because he hasn't come over) all labeled busts.

Even still...he flipped Pech into someone drafted higher in the same draft and Mike Miller. No GM is batting 1.000. Everybodies favorite Mr.78 mentioned the Spurs...go check out their draft record from 2004 - now

http://www.databasebasketball.com/draft/draftteam.htm?tm=SAS&lg=N

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 3:09 PM | Report abuse

I would like to know your thoughts on (and if it is realistic) who ernie should trade to get Chris Paul on this team. Would it be either CB or AJ packaged with RF or should we have to trade GA with someone else on the team?

Would a backcourt with CP3 and GA work? Personally I think it would since gil would move to the 2spot and can do what he does best. not thinking about setting up but simply drive and shoot.

Posted by: Goelez | December 16, 2009 3:16 PM | Report abuse

It's like people have forgotten that Arenas ruined his knee. The team EG assembled minus that injury is one that would have just required tweaking over the years to be perennially in the mix.

What we're seeing today is the direct result of Arenas' knee injury.

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 3:16 PM | Report abuse

trade for CP3????????

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 3:17 PM | Report abuse

the teams that win the Championship have a transcendent player aboard and 1-2 other HOF type players. Aside from that 1 Pistons team, and you can argue they had multiple HOFers instead.

EVERYBODY ELSE LOSES.

so constant talk of "what about amare" or "why didnt we draft steve nash!" etc etc is hot air isnt it?

what's nash won? how about amare? how about cp3? dirk?

we have the team we have, it's on Flip to coach'em up!

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 3:22 PM | Report abuse


"Even still...he flipped Pech into someone drafted higher in the same draft and Mike Miller."


You left out the major components of the trade. The 5th pick, Songaila and Etan.

Posted by: artiesliver | December 16, 2009 3:24 PM | Report abuse

SDMDTSU,

While I agree with your overall argument, and am loathe to say anything that might be interpreted as providing encouragement to the other guy's insane rants, I feel compelled (in the name of accuracy) to point out that the Spurs have a habit of drafting players with the specific intent of not ever signing them. A lot of the names on that list are players the Spurs drafted and immediately traded the rights away (Dragic, Barbosa, Williams, Salmons) or players they drafted from overseas with little or no intent to bring them over.

They have an established protocol of retooling around their core with reasonably priced FA signings and judicious trades, while (until recently) staying mostly out of the "developing young talent" business. It's one of the reasons why they've managed to avoid the luxury tax (even staying under the salary cap some years) prior to this season.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 3:25 PM | Report abuse

If Gil and CB played to the level AJ is we wouldnt be having any problems.

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 3:09 PM | Report abuse

They do none of them can play a lick of "D".

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 16, 2009 3:25 PM | Report abuse

There's not a snowball's chance in hell of the Wizards trading for Paul.

None.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 3:26 PM | Report abuse

If Gil and CB played to the level AJ is we wouldnt be having any problems.

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 3:09 PM | Report abuse

Were you a fan when they all were healthy?

Where did this get us then? First round losses and that was before Orl and Atl got better.

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 16, 2009 3:28 PM | Report abuse

the teams that win the Championship have a transcendent player aboard and 1-2 other HOF type players. Aside from that 1 Pistons team, and you can argue they had multiple HOFers instead.

EVERYBODY ELSE LOSES.

so constant talk of "what about amare" or "why didnt we draft steve nash!" etc etc is hot air isnt it?

what's nash won? how about amare? how about cp3? dirk?

we have the team we have, it's on Flip to coach'em up!

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 3:22 PM | Report abuse

Off course we have the team we have and you got a point that all this talk is hot air BUT that's why its called a blog, no?

Maybe half of the posts here contains the "IF" word....

I don't have my hopes set high on getting CP3 here but just blogging my thoughts.

Posted by: Goelez | December 16, 2009 3:29 PM | Report abuse

Even still...he flipped Pech into someone drafted higher in the same draft and Mike Miller. No GM is batting 1.000. Everybodies favorite Mr.78 mentioned the Spurs...go check out their draft record from 2004 - now

http://www.databasebasketball.com/draft/draftteam.htm?tm=SAS&lg=N

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 3:09 PM | Report abuse
terribly sorry for calling your comment dumb partner.I must not have read it correctly.

now that that's outta the way, do you call trading the no 5 pick and 3players for MM and Foye flipping pech? I believe a flip is when you pay X and then sell it for 2X. we didn't get double the value for pech straight up and u know it. They'da crucified ol' boy up in Minny if he dumped Foye and Miller for Pech and the ghost of Ricky Rubio.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 16, 2009 3:33 PM | Report abuse

"the teams that win the Championship have a transcendent player aboard and 1-2 other HOF type players. Aside from that 1 Pistons team, and you can argue they had multiple HOFers instead."

2004 Pistons had no transcendent types and no future HOFers. A TEAM can win it if constructed properly.

Posted by: artiesliver | December 16, 2009 3:35 PM | Report abuse

You left out the major components of the trade. The 5th pick, Songaila and Etan.

I hope noone ever considers Etan and Songalia major. Let alone a draft pick that won't suit up for 2 or 3 years. I didn't forget them...I was just going off who he drafted. He got rid of dead weight and a pick he didn't want. I personally said this summer (ON THIS BOARD) I thought picking up Miller for the #5 would be great but when Foye came with it...AND we got rid of Etan's contract? I was even more for it.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 3:38 PM | Report abuse

"I hope noone ever considers Etan and Songalia major. Let alone a draft pick that won't suit up for 2 or 3 years."

The trade doesn't get done without those three components. That makes them MAJOR, dude. Or better yet ESSENTIAL.

Posted by: artiesliver | December 16, 2009 3:44 PM | Report abuse

2004 Pistons had no transcendent types and no future HOFers. A TEAM can win it if constructed properly.

You basically said the SAME thing he just responded to you with. Go back and find the last TEAM to win a championship without a dominating player. Hell only 5 or 6 teams have won a championship since like 1983.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 3:47 PM | Report abuse

"2004 Pistons had no transcendent types and no future HOFers. A TEAM can win it if constructed properly."

The Pistons were also pretty damn lucky, quite frankly.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 3:49 PM | Report abuse

the trade wouldn't have happened if those players you omitted weren't included in the trade. so, to a certain degree, they were just as instrumental as the no 5 pick or their Dirk Light/Pech. There was also no certainty that he wouldn't/couldn't come play. i think that became an issue when he was drafted. Had we drafted him, i dunno, maybe he woulda thought better of DC's growing Latin (I know he's a Spaniard not a Latin American) community vs. the prospects of cold winters in cosmopoltitan Minnesota. Remember, he had the last word in coming here, he decided not to come to Minny. It's on their GM that they picked RR anyway. He very well coulda too stef f curry or psycho t or whoever. I said it on draft day and i still feel like the wiz pulled the trigger on the trade too soon. I don't know of any other possible moves, but i do know that if minny was willing to trade up to 5 just to pick a guy they weren't sure was coming over, I'm almost certain the wiz coulda worked something out with someone before minny gave up.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 16, 2009 3:50 PM | Report abuse

The trade doesn't get done without those three components. That makes them MAJOR, dude. Or better yet ESSENTIAL.

I'm saying the arent ESSENTIAL or MAJOR components of the actual roster. You could've thrown in a bag of Red Lobster biscuits to the trade...even though they are delicious...it still doesn't make them major.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 3:50 PM | Report abuse

I said it on draft day and i still feel like the wiz pulled the trigger on the trade too soon. I don't know of any other possible moves, but i do know that if minny was willing to trade up to 5 just to pick a guy they weren't sure was coming over, I'm almost certain the wiz coulda worked something out with someone before minny gave up.

That's the thing. You don't know. I think the trade was a steal. Sometimes shuffling your feet and trying to get more leaves you with nothing. They could've traded to #4 or #6. If you get something you're comfortable with and get rid of Etan's contract and Darius's contract. I say do it.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 3:53 PM | Report abuse

"You basically said the SAME thing he just responded to you with. Go back and find the last TEAM to win a championship without a dominating player. Hell only 5 or 6 teams have won a championship since like 1983."

No, I didn't.
He said "the teams that win the Championship have a transcendent player aboard and 1-2 other HOF type players. Aside from that 1 Pistons team, and you can argue they had multiple HOFers instead.".
He could only be talking about the Pistons of the late 80s early 90s having multiple HOFers.

Posted by: artiesliver | December 16, 2009 3:57 PM | Report abuse

transcendent and dominating are two different things. we should probably distinguish the two going forward, because a player can be one without being the other and both at the same time. Dwight howard is an example, Dirk is an example and Kevin Durant is an example all players seen as transcendent or taking the game to the next level, however i don't know if any of them are dominant.Then there's a guy like paul pierce who is neither a transcending the game type of player nor the dominant player on his team, however he was a finals MVP.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 16, 2009 3:57 PM | Report abuse

"I'm saying the arent ESSENTIAL or MAJOR components of the actual roster. You could've thrown in a bag of Red Lobster biscuits to the trade...even though they are delicious...it still doesn't make them major."

But they are the major components of the trade and you left them out.

Posted by: artiesliver | December 16, 2009 3:59 PM | Report abuse

@lilhollywood,

I agree Pierce is not transcendent but I do think he's a strong candidate for the HOF.

Posted by: artiesliver | December 16, 2009 4:04 PM | Report abuse

"The Pistons were also pretty damn lucky, quite frankly."

You've already said you need luck to win a championship. The Pistons beat a team with four future HOFers on it. They won, dude.


Posted by: artiesliver | December 16, 2009 4:07 PM | Report abuse

While I agree with your overall argument, and am loathe to say anything that might be interpreted as providing encouragement to the other guy's insane rants, I feel compelled (in the name of accuracy) to point out that the Spurs have a habit of drafting players with the specific intent of not ever signing them. A lot of the names on that list are players the Spurs drafted and immediately traded the rights away (Dragic, Barbosa, Williams, Salmons) or players they drafted from overseas with little or no intent to bring them over.

Agreed. Don't forget Scola. I want someone to go look at the other teams draft picks. The whole worst GM in the league nonsense is just STUPID. If we would've traded away all those good players they would've called the owner cheap...

Wait...they do that anyway.

For 78 to constantly talk about Abe being cheap...I've never known the Daniel Snyder model to be successful.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 4:12 PM | Report abuse

Sometimes shuffling your feet and trying to get more leaves you with nothing.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 3:53 PM | Report abuse

Yea, they could have been stuck drafting Jennings?

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 16, 2009 4:13 PM | Report abuse

You don't consider Dwight Howard dominant?

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 4:13 PM | Report abuse

Yea, they could have been stuck drafting Jennings?

And you think Brandon Jennings is the key to the Wizards season. Seriously? I'd take Foye and Miller over him even AFTER I've seen what he's done.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 4:15 PM | Report abuse

"Don't forget Scola. I want someone to go look at the other teams draft picks. The whole worst GM in the league nonsense is just STUPID. If we would've traded away all those good players they would've called the owner cheap..."

Not if you're winning multiple championships as you trade them away. Winning is the most important thing and the Spurs have done it repeatedly.

Posted by: artiesliver | December 16, 2009 4:17 PM | Report abuse

now that that's outta the way, do you call trading the no 5 pick and 3players for MM and Foye flipping pech? I believe a flip is when you pay X and then sell it for 2X. we didn't get double the value for pech straight up and u know it. They'da crucified ol' boy up in Minny if he dumped Foye and Miller for Pech and the ghost of Ricky Rubio.

A flip is also when you get value for garbage. Etan's contract and Darius's contract were trash. Let alone the contributions on the court. To FLIP that into a opening night starter and Foye (who I don't know why can't get off the bench...) I'll take that. I never said it was just for Pech, I just listed him because I was talking about the drafted players.

Pech was in a sport jacket with Etan and Darius was decent...but who wouldn't make that deal? Even with a 5th pick (especially when it's common knowledge that you don't want it.)

Kinda funny that the Cash who the Wiz traded for has the same number of votes for Rookie of the Year as the #5 pick.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 4:19 PM | Report abuse

I want someone to go look at the other teams draft picks. The whole worst GM in the league nonsense is just STUPID.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 4:12 PM | Report abuse

There is more to being a good GM besides draft picks and there are only 3 other teams with worse records than the Wizards so that makes Ernie the 27 th best GM out of 30.

Give Ernie a raise?

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 16, 2009 4:19 PM | Report abuse

blatche, MJ and Brenda for T-MAC!!

Posted by: prescrunk | December 16, 2009 4:20 PM | Report abuse

You don't consider Dwight Howard dominant?

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 4:13 PM | Report abuse


not in the least bit his performance had little to no bearing on the outcome of most of those finals games. I believe you and i differed on how long it would take for them to adjust to losing the turk in orl, as most people saw him as their best player/playmaker. then you have lewis, then you had Lee, hell you even had alston. D Howard is great, but he doesn't dominate games consistently to be considered a dominant player. Dominant is Old LA Shaq when he's getting 25 and 12+ every night and he's making the difference. Shaq was the dominant big man the lakers relied on when they needed an easy bucket. Last year when orl needed an easy bucket the Iso'd The Turk or Lewis, possibly a pick and roll. they rarely threw it into Dwight when they needed a bucket.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 16, 2009 4:22 PM | Report abuse

Not if you're winning multiple championships as you trade them away. Winning is the most important thing and the Spurs have done it repeatedly.

Fine. I'll give you that. How many championships have the Suns won?

http://www.databasebasketball.com/draft/draftteam.htm?tm=PHO&lg=N

Nuggets?
http://www.databasebasketball.com/draft/draftteam.htm?tm=DEN&lg=N

Mavericks?
http://www.databasebasketball.com/draft/draftteam.htm?tm=DAL&lg=N

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 4:23 PM | Report abuse

There is more to being a good GM besides draft picks and there are only 3 other teams with worse records than the Wizards so that makes Ernie the 27 th best GM out of 30.

Yeah if the season ended at 22 games cool. Talk to me after another 60 about records.

We can talk about trades and FA signings if you'd like as well.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 4:25 PM | Report abuse

I felt like Ernie was trying to use the Spurs model drafting and stashing players overseas with Pech and Veermenko...I didn't like it...even though I kinda rooted for Pech.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 4:26 PM | Report abuse

"The Pistons beat a team with four future HOFers on it."

The Pistons beat a team that was coming apart at the seams because of injury and personality conflicts. Hell, the very fact that they played the Lakers was luck, because going into the playoffs, the consensus was that the Spurs were the better team. However, the Lakers lucked out and beat San Antonio on what is possibly the luckiest shot in NBA playoff history.

All that aside, the fact that the Pistons are essentially the ONLY team to win a title in about 30 years without a surefire 1st ballot HoFer on board pretty much underscores (A) how lucky they were and (B) how rare/damn near impossible it is to win a title w/o such a player.

Any team that uses them as some kind of example to aspire to is buying fool's gold in a down market.

And I'm a Pistons' fan, BTW.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 4:27 PM | Report abuse

For 78 to constantly talk about Abe being cheap...I've never known the Daniel Snyder model to be successful.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 4:12 PM | Report abuse
since we're mixing sports i think the yankees do pretty well with that model

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 16, 2009 4:28 PM | Report abuse

"A flip is also when you get value for garbage. Etan's contract and Darius's contract were trash. Let alone the contributions on the court. To FLIP that into a opening night starter and Foye (who I don't know why can't get off the bench...) I'll take that. I never said it was just for Pech, I just listed him because I was talking about the drafted players."

It looks more like you only mentioned Pech (the bad) and Miller (the good that came from trading Pech) and a player drafted higher than him (Foye, also the good) in order to enhance your "Look how great Ernie is" post. I could be wrong.

Posted by: artiesliver | December 16, 2009 4:29 PM | Report abuse

That's the thing. You don't know. I think the trade was a steal. Sometimes shuffling your feet and trying to get more leaves you with nothing. They could've traded to #4 or #6. If you get something you're comfortable with and get rid of Etan's contract and Darius's contract. I say do it.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 3:53 PM | Report abuse

are you sure they could have traded for #4 or #6 because either the pick before or after ours was their pick. that was the point they wanted to pick back to back.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 16, 2009 4:29 PM | Report abuse

since we're mixing sports i think the yankees do pretty well with that model

Only because they are in the only league without a salary cap. They're payroll you could buy a small country with. Even still they hadn't won a world series since when with that model?

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 4:30 PM | Report abuse

Basketball is a simple game. The NBA game even simpler. Create a mismatch which requires a double team and then shoot open shots. Who on the Wizards demands a double team? No one.

Posted by: ptp23 | December 16, 2009 4:30 PM | Report abuse

looks more like you only mentioned Pech (the bad) and Miller (the good that came from trading Pech) and a player drafted higher than him (Foye, also the good) in order to enhance your "Look how great Ernie is" post. I could be wrong.

Yes you read it wrong. I think Pech was actually better than Etan and Darius.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 4:32 PM | Report abuse

"Fine. I'll give you that. How many championships have the Suns won?"

Who cares? I thought you were talking about the Spurs giving away picks and the backlash it would have. There's no backlash when you have a plan and it works (meaning you win).

Posted by: artiesliver | December 16, 2009 4:33 PM | Report abuse

"And you think Brandon Jennings is the key to the Wizards season. Seriously? I'd take Foye and Miller over him even AFTER I've seen what he's done."

this is exactly what i mean, people talk as if Ty Lawson or whomever would have delivered us Rings. It just doesnt work that way, and when you look around the league longing for other teams' players- 90% it's for players who wouldnt change your team all that much.

Unless of there are people who really believe that Shawn Marion would have done something here

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 4:33 PM | Report abuse

A flip is also when you get value for garbage

no, it's actually not. a flip is taking whatever you got and doubling it. Yes you can flip garbage into double garbage which may yield some value, but ask anyone who knows where the term comes from. to flip something be it a house, a car or some weight, is to double your investment.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 16, 2009 4:34 PM | Report abuse

and that Pistons team had a couple HOFers to go with a HOF coach

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 4:34 PM | Report abuse

and Ricky Menudo will never do squat in the nba, thank Yaweh ernie knew that and fleeced Minny for his rights

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 4:35 PM | Report abuse

Only because they are in the only league without a salary cap. They're payroll you could buy a small country with. Even still they hadn't won a world series since when with that model?

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 4:30 PM | Report abuse
what was your original question?
did I answer it?
why are you asking more questions to tear down the answer?

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 16, 2009 4:36 PM | Report abuse

"There's no backlash when you have a plan and it works (meaning you win)."

their plan for more than a decade has revolved around having one or two of the top3 big men in the nba on their roster and building around that.

Quite a bit easier than building around Haywood no?

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 4:37 PM | Report abuse

"no, it's actually not. a flip is taking whatever you got and doubling it. Yes you can flip garbage into double garbage which may yield some value, but ask anyone who knows where the term comes from. to flip something be it a house, a car or some weight, is to double your investment."

Wrong.

Main Entry: 1flip
Pronunciation: \ˈflip\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): flipped; flip·ping
Etymology: probably imitative
Date: circa 1567

transitive verb

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/flip
3 : to buy and usually renovate (real estate) so as to quickly resell at a higher price

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/flip
5. Finance. to resell, esp. quickly, or to refinance, as a mortgage loan.

It simply means to buy something then resell it at a profit. There's no specific amount or ratio on the return attached to the meaning.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 4:39 PM | Report abuse

"and that Pistons team had a couple HOFers to go with a HOF coach"

What two HoFers did the Pistons have on that team?

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 4:39 PM | Report abuse

@SD
we'll revisit this issue the offseason after whoever buys Bosh and Tha Kang en route to the championship. Teams sure look ready to adopt this model in the NBA clearing roster space for Bron Bron.and it kinda makes sense, while the Yankees have to fill a roster with 9 everyday players and roatating pitchers, NBA teams can only fill a roster to a max of 15 spots and a min of 8 (right). You get Lebron and Bosh on the right team with some talent and i could see that model working well in this instance.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 16, 2009 4:40 PM | Report abuse

Darko and Darvin

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 4:42 PM | Report abuse

"You get Lebron and Bosh on the right team with some talent and i could see that model working well in this instance."

Sure, it'll work great for the one team that gets them. But what about the other ten teams that are left with tons of cap space, depleted rosters, and nothing to show for it?

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 4:43 PM | Report abuse

seriously though, by the criteria of the Int BBall HOF.....Raweed and Rip could eventually be in based on the totality of their careers (hs, college, pro)

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 4:44 PM | Report abuse

@kalo_rama


Payton and Malone might have been past their prime, but Kobe and Shaq were not. The Pistons had to beat them as a team and they did.

I do agree that it's rare for a team not having a t/HOF player to win and luck is most definitely involved, but I also think it's rare to be in a position to acquire a t/HOF type player via draft or trade.

So if you lack that transcendent player or HOFer there is another model for winning(the 2004 Pistons) and you don't have to break the bank (as the Wizards currently are doing) in order to at put yourself in a position to win.

Posted by: artiesliver | December 16, 2009 4:46 PM | Report abuse

BRING T-MAC TO DC

Posted by: prescrunk | December 16, 2009 4:49 PM | Report abuse

"their plan for more than a decade has revolved around having one or two of the top3 big men in the nba on their roster and building around that.Quite a bit easier than building around Haywood no?"

And their plan worked, so they could trade away as many picks as they wanted as long as they kept the trophies coming in.
Haywood has nothing to do with what SDMDTSU was talking about.

Posted by: artiesliver | December 16, 2009 4:50 PM | Report abuse

Even still they hadn't won a world series since when with that model?

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 4:30 PM | Report abuse

THIS YEAR!

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 16, 2009 4:50 PM | Report abuse

"Payton and Malone might have been past their prime, but Kobe and Shaq were not. "

A task made easier by the fact that the Lakers weren't playing as a team. Malone was hurt, Payton was ineffective, Fisher was disgruntled, and Kobe and Shaq couldn't stand the sight of each other and were largely playing like strangers on the court. The Pistons were basically playing 5-on-2, and those two (Shaq and Kobe) were mostly playing 1-on-1. Yes, the Pistons won. But it wasn't simply because they were more talented. The truth is much more complicated, and those complications can't be duplicated or controlled for.

"So if you lack that transcendent player or HOFer there is another model for winning(the 2004 Pistons) "

A model, by definition, is something that can be replicated. The fact that it's only been done once in the last 3 decades(and only twice in the modern era, if you count the '79 Sonics) is proof that it's not a model than can be readily duplicated.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 4:53 PM | Report abuse

their plan is based on the luxury of having 2 transcendent HOF all-time great BIG MEN to anchor the franchise for 2 decades.

hardly a model for other GMs to emulate right?

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 4:54 PM | Report abuse

preciate it kal,

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 16, 2009 4:55 PM | Report abuse

"Yes you read it wrong. I think Pech was actually better than Etan and Darius."

Then you're the only one because the trade doesn't get legs without the 5th pick, which you failed to mention in your "I love Ernie so much!" post. But I'm sure it was an oversight.

Posted by: artiesliver | December 16, 2009 4:55 PM | Report abuse

"their plan is based on the luxury of having 2 transcendent HOF all-time great BIG MEN to anchor the franchise for 2 decades. hardly a model for other GMs to emulate right?"

The point is the Spurs could trade picks without fear of being called cheap because they were winning. I never said the Spurs' actions should be emulated by other GMs. That might be somebody else's view, not mine.

Posted by: artiesliver | December 16, 2009 4:58 PM | Report abuse

The issues with this team are fixable if its franchise player (Arenas) plays that way in the 4th quarter. I can count 4 games off the top of my head (Miami at home, Toronto, Boston, Indiana) where he either missed key shots, foul shots, or committed TO's. Wade of Miami has less of a supporting cast but manages to close out games consistently.

Arenas needs to see the sports guru in Potomac that he worked with previously on his mental game and that helped LeBron. Foul shots missed are a mental thing, not physical. Even at 80-90% of his old self, Arenas should be a Top 20 player and has a strong supporting cast. He needs to get his mojo back and soon.

Posted by: wizfan89 | December 16, 2009 4:58 PM | Report abuse

"seriously though, by the criteria of the Int BBall HOF.....Raweed and Rip could eventually be in based on the totality of their careers (hs, college, pro)"

Rasheed and Hamilton are not getting into the HoF. They're solid players, but not HoFers. in fact, Rasheed is largely considered one of the biggest underachieving good players in recent history. He certainly had the talent to be a HoF, but pretty much everyone agrees that he didn't have the drive or commitment. Ben Wallace or Billups have better chances at the HoF than Rasheed (not because of numbers but because of individual awards and backstory).

In any case, any player you pick for the Pistons is a longshot for the HoF at very best, and even then not a first ballot selection. Literally every other team that's won a title in the last 3 decades has had at least one (and in some cases more) surefire, no-questions-asked, first ballot HoF selection on board.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 4:59 PM | Report abuse

I didn't say the draft pick would have made the Wizards champions, but MM and Foye aren't either.

What happens when MM walks at the end of the season and the only player has from the trade is Foye (who can't beat Boykins off the bench)?

It takes a couple of years to see how a draft really pans out, but I would put money that 5 guys who were drafted after the 5th pick will be starters in the NBA and Foye will be backing up whomever Ernie finds that is playing in Europe that hasn't played in the NBA in a couple of years.

Let's not forget about Ernie picking ETaps last year to coach this team. That alone should put him in the Hall of Shame!

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 16, 2009 5:00 PM | Report abuse

the bball HOF is based on more than nba career. Raweed was HS player of the year, a standout at UNC, and an nba champ. Rip an ncaa champ, nba champ.

guys like Dirk, Manu, Deke are shoe-ins based on national origin

whereas Webber was a lock, but now all his ncaa stuff is deleted, so probably not

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 5:04 PM | Report abuse

"It takes a couple of years to see how a draft really pans out, but I would put money that 5 guys who were drafted after the 5th pick will be starters in the NBA"

that's all hindsight that multiple GMs will supposedly have failed on though, and you cant even say the teams that picked the later guys would have done so had they had a higher pick.

the Menudo hype was in full force and there were probably a dozen fool GMs out there that would have picked him at 5 imo

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 5:09 PM | Report abuse

"A model, by definition, is something that can be replicated. The fact that it's only been done once in the last 3 decades(and only twice in the modern era, if you count the '79 Sonics) is proof that it's not a model than can be readily duplicated."

kalo_rama,
I appreciate your view. As you said, the definition of model is something that can be replicated. It doesn't have to be "readily" replicated. The fact that it has been done before means that it can be done again. It might not happen frequently or even occasionally, but it can be done (probably about as often as drafting a t/HOF player which the Wizards have not done in eons).

Posted by: artiesliver | December 16, 2009 5:10 PM | Report abuse

wizfan89, agree 110%. It's all about Gil and whatever it takes to get him right.

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 5:10 PM | Report abuse

"the bball HOF is based on more than nba career. "

For NBA players, their pro careers carry the lions' share of the weight.

Nowitzki will be a HOF because he's a HoF caliber NBA player, regardless of where he was born. Mutumbo is one of the most dominant defensive big men in the history of the league. Ginobili could go either way.

Webber was never a lock to get in.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 5:11 PM | Report abuse

"As you said, the definition of model is something that can be replicated. It doesn't have to be "readily" replicated."

It does if you're enacting as a specific plan. Which, again, the Pistons didn't. They got lucky.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 5:12 PM | Report abuse

"The fact that it has been done before means that it can be done again. It might not happen frequently or even occasionally, but it can be done"

Well, there were 25 years between the Sonics and the Pistons. The Pistons won it in 2004, so the Wiz should just start stockpiling good-not-great players now and in another 25 years they should be golden.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 5:15 PM | Report abuse

"Nowitzki will be a HOF because he's a HoF caliber NBA player, regardless of where he was born."

tell that to artis gilmore.

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 5:20 PM | Report abuse

""BTH is a bit more physical, longer, and a bigger threat on the defensive end . . .

Kamen didn't appear all that threatened by him.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 12:14 AM | Report abuse "

Nobody said Kamen was threatened.

What was said was that BTH is a bit more physical, longer, and bigger threat on the defensive end compared to Kamen.

Posted by: DC_MAN88 | December 16, 2009 5:28 PM | Report abuse

"It does if you're enacting as a specific plan. Which, again, the Pistons didn't. They got lucky."

What specific plan guarantees you a t/HOF player (which is the other option)?


"Well, there were 25 years between the Sonics and the Pistons. The Pistons won it in 2004, so the Wiz should just start stockpiling good-not-great players now and in another 25 years they should be golden."

They should "start" doing so? The Wizards have already been doing that (albeit improperly).
It's only fair to note that there were about 14 years between the Pistons' championship with a t/HOF player and the 2004 team. So 30 years is hardly the required "stockpiling" period.

Posted by: artiesliver | December 16, 2009 5:29 PM | Report abuse

People keep saying I come with bad news only. Here's some "good" news.

As of today, Les BouleS are projected to win 26 games this season. That's a 7 game improvement over the 19 games they won last season!!!

Although, they still may qualify for the lottery....

LMFAO!!!

Posted by: DC_MAN88 | December 16, 2009 5:31 PM | Report abuse

THE WIZARDS HAD A PLAN!

it was derailed by injury, and of course there's no guarantee even with Gil healthy that anything big would have been accomplished.

But let's not talk like EG has been floundering around doing nothing. At the height of his powers, Gil was ABSOLUTELY one of the most dynamic players in the nba. And a guy who was going to be sought after.

Yes, it all went to hell in a handbasket.

But it's not like EG wasnt building something

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 5:34 PM | Report abuse

Even still they hadn't won a world series since when with that model?

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 4:30 PM | Report abuse

THIS YEAR!

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 16, 2009 4:50 PM | Report abuse

I used the words HADN'T and SINCE... meaning BEFORE this season when they obviously won the world series. They spent 200 million or so for how many years?

In basketball you can't spend 5 or 6x your competition to win. The closest we've seen come to that is the New York Knicks.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 5:37 PM | Report abuse

This thread has gone all over the place since I left work.

Who cares? I thought you were talking about the Spurs giving away picks and the backlash it would have. There's no backlash when you have a plan and it works (meaning you win).

Study up on context clues. That's not what I was ever talking about. I was comparing draft picks against winning teams who people on this board SWEAR don't have bad picks or trades or FA signings.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 5:42 PM | Report abuse

the Menudo hype was in full force and there were probably a dozen fool GMs out there that would have picked him at 5 imo

Posted by: divi3 | December 16, 2009 5:09 PM | Report abuse

i think that makes a good enough case to wait until draft day to make the trade rather than making it painfully obvious that you don't want the pick all the way up to the draft (there was speculation before the lotto that they wouldn't sign the no 1 if they got him )and end up moving it before the draft. imagine how that hype could intensify on draft day. How many calls would EG have gotten if they waited til after the 2nd pick or 3rd pick to seriously consider offers? we'll never know because wht's been don has been done. That decision in conjunction with a lot of other factors have us where we are.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 16, 2009 5:45 PM | Report abuse

How many calls would EG have gotten if they waited til after the 2nd pick or 3rd pick to seriously consider offers? we'll never know because wht's been don has been done. That decision in conjunction with a lot of other factors have us where we are.

The issue with that is...how many other calls is that team going to make. It's not like they were the only people the Wolves were allowed to trade with. Let alone if the player they wanted (whoever it is) is off the board. Then they have no reason to deal with you at all.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 5:51 PM | Report abuse

The game tonight is on ESPN right?

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 16, 2009 5:55 PM | Report abuse


"Study up on context clues. That's not what I was ever talking about. I was comparing draft picks against winning teams who people on this board SWEAR don't have bad picks or trades or FA signings."

Perfectly understood the context of your 4:12 pm post. You felt Abe would have been called cheap (backlash) if he had given away all the picks the Spurs have given away.
In reference to your question about the Suns, I was trying to say "I thought you were talking about the Spurs giving away picks and the backlash it would have [FOR THE WIZARDS]" if they had given away picks over the years like the Spurs.
When you win, it's all good.

Posted by: artiesliver | December 16, 2009 6:05 PM | Report abuse

Looks like the game's on CSN & ESPN.

Posted by: VBFan | December 16, 2009 6:16 PM | Report abuse

They should be able to beat the Kings but they should have beaten............ oh never mind.

Posted by: dargregmag | December 16, 2009 6:32 PM | Report abuse

"Looks like the game's on CSN & ESPN.

Posted by: VBFan | December 16, 2009 6:16 PM | Report abuse "

No brainer there.

Posted by: DC_MAN88 | December 16, 2009 7:03 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: DC_MAN88 | December 16, 2009 7:23 PM | Report abuse

Poll: Funny or Sad?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4749300

Posted by: DC_MAN88 | December 16, 2009 7:23 PM |

Shudda done this before the Pacer game.

Posted by: VBFan | December 16, 2009 7:42 PM | Report abuse

The two Hall of Famers for the Pistons...Dennis Rodman and Adrian Dantley.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | December 16, 2009 8:52 PM | Report abuse

"tell that to artis gilmore."

What does Artis Gilmore have to do with anything?

"What specific plan guarantees you a t/HOF player (which is the other option)?"

There's no specific plan that guarantees anything. That's the point. Any path taken to build a team requires exploring multiple options and modes: free agency, the draft, trades, internal development/improvement but, at the end of the day, they all lead to the same place: If you want a ring, you need that A-List go-to player; and if you don't have one, the odds against you winning a title are astronomical. So undertaking a specific plan that specifically eschews a strategy to obtain such a player (which is what you're suggesting) is a plan with extraordinarily low odds of success.

"They should "start" doing so? The Wizards have already been doing that (albeit improperly). "

It was improper because they improperly believed that they already had the key, A-list player in Arenas. That has since been proven false.

"It's only fair to note that there were about 14 years between the Pistons' championship with a t/HOF player and the 2004 team. So 30 years is hardly the required "stockpiling" period."

It may be fair, but it's also irrelevant. I wasn't counting the years between Pistons wins. I was counting the years between teams without a first ballot HoFer in the lineup winning a title. From 1979 (Sonics) to 2004 (Pistons). That's 25 years.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 8:56 PM | Report abuse

"The two Hall of Famers for the Pistons...Dennis Rodman and Adrian Dantley"

Rodman isn't in the HoF, despite being eligible, and Dantley wasn't on the Pistons team that won the title.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 8:57 PM | Report abuse

Moreover, I'm talking about players who were already recognized as HoF caliber at the time they won the title (Shaq, Kobe, Jordan, Pippen, Olajuwon, Drexler, Garnett, Duncan, Magic, Bird,etc.). Rodman was primarily a role player for the Pistons title team, mostly coming off the bench. He didn't start winning rebounding titles and making all-defensive teams (and headlines) until after the Pistons title run ended.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 9:02 PM | Report abuse

Okay, maybe not Pippen, at least not during the first 3-peat. By the time the second came along, he was in.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 9:08 PM | Report abuse

I with you Kal, I just threw those too names out there because of all the Pistons I like those two the best. Rodman should be a Hall of Famer and Dantley should get it also. Neither may never get it.

However, I would love to see either one get it.

But your argument is good with me.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | December 16, 2009 9:10 PM | Report abuse

Also Kal you do know that Dantley should have never been traded that first year of Detroit's Championship. The Pistons knew this and Dantley has a Pistons Championship Ring as directed by the Pistons Org.

I'm sure you know this and do not need me to rehash for you. So technically, even though he wasn't on the Team when they won the first title he got credit for being a part of the Pistons first Championship.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | December 16, 2009 9:17 PM | Report abuse

I know that Dantley was traded halfway through the season, that he was long gone by the time they got to the playoffs, and that he was not a member of the team that played for and won the title. With regard to the issue at hand, nothing else matters.

Big ups to the Pistons' organization for throwing him some love, but we both know your "argument" is a load of horse crap.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 9:22 PM | Report abuse

Moreover, arguing that he "shouldn't have been traded" when the immediate outcome of them trading him was winning two consecutive titles just makes you sound like a fool.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 16, 2009 9:23 PM | Report abuse

Don't have an argument in this tango. I was just agreeing with you. But since you want to snare me into one.

That player whom was Isaiah's buddy was no where near as good a player as Adrian was and he did not even start. Adrian was a starter on that team and that trade had nothing to do with them winning two Championships.

They would have won them anyway without the trade and anyone who was following the game then knows that, including yourself.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | December 16, 2009 9:38 PM | Report abuse

" Neither may never get it.

However, I would love to see either one get it.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | December 16, 2009 9:10 PM | Report abuse "

WTF?

Posted by: DC_MAN88 | December 16, 2009 9:47 PM | Report abuse

For you to allege that trade was the catalyst for there two championships would be the most moronic comment I've seen on this blog yet, Kalo_rama.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | December 16, 2009 9:50 PM | Report abuse

"It may be fair, but it's also irrelevant. I wasn't counting the years between Pistons wins. I was counting the years between teams without a first ballot HoFer in the lineup winning a title. From 1979 (Sonics) to 2004 (Pistons). That's 25 years."

Which is irrelevant to the present. It has no bearing on when the next team without a t/HOF player will win a championship. None.

Posted by: artiesliver | December 16, 2009 9:51 PM | Report abuse

"There's no specific plan that guarantees anything. That's the point. Any path taken to build a team requires exploring multiple options and modes: free agency, the draft, trades, internal development/improvement but, at the end of the day, they all lead to the same place: If you want a ring, you need that A-List go-to player; and if you don't have one, the odds against you winning a title are astronomical. So undertaking a specific plan that specifically eschews a strategy to obtain such a player (which is what you're suggesting) is a plan with extraordinarily low odds of success."

My point is the odds are probably just as low for acquiring the t/HOF player as the odds are of winning with a well-rounded team that gets lucky. Put another way, if you don't have the t/HOF player, you still have a chance if you have a well-rounded team that gets lucky.

Posted by: artiesliver | December 16, 2009 10:01 PM | Report abuse

WTF?

Posted by: DC_MAN88 | December 16, 2009 9:47 PM

OK. Adrain's already in. Good.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | December 16, 2009 10:10 PM | Report abuse

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