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High praise for latest group of predraft invitees

The Wizards completed another round of workouts late this morning at Verizon Center, and at the conclusion of the approximately hour-long session Coach Flip Saunders gathered the six participating players in the middle of the practice court and told them this was best group in a week of auditioning players that began on Monday.

The players who attended today's workout were Vanderbilt guard Jermaine Beal, Western Kentucky forward Jeremy Evans, Massachusetts guard Ricky Harris, DePaul forward-center Mac Koshwal, University of Washington swingman Quincy Pondexter and Connecticut forward Stanley Robinson.

The most notable absence was former Kansas guard Sherron Collins, who originally was scheduled to be at the workout but was unable to attend because of another commitment. Also unable to attend was ex-Oklahoma guard Willie Warren, who declared for the NBA draft after a sophomore season in which he averaged 16.3 points and 4.1 assists per game.

"We came out, and we really competed," said Pondexter, a first-team all-Pac 10 selection following his senior season. "Coach Flip Saunders said we were the hardest competing bunch, and it was a lot of fun to be out there."

Players also said they would relish the opportunity to join a team that appears likely to add John Wall with the No. 1 overall pick and has all-star Gilbert Arenas coming back next season.

"John Wall, man, that's just incredible," said Robinson, who had career highs in points (14.5) and rebounds (7.6) as a senior. "It's unbelievable. Just having him alone is going to give the team a spark. It's going to be a great team."

By Gene Wang  |  June 3, 2010; 2:20 PM ET
 
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Next: John Wall scheduled to work out for Wizards on June 17

Comments

Gene Wang is in the house!

I hnestly don't know much about any of those guys, I am still hyped up about Wall.

- Ray

Posted by: rmcazz | June 3, 2010 3:03 PM | Report abuse

It's a bit early in the workout season for this, and it would be a little late in the draft for it. but when I see guys pulling out of workouts, the first thing that comes to mind is that someone has given them the old 'guarantee' that they will be drafted by someone before the Wiz pick at the end of the first.

Posted by: ts35 | June 3, 2010 3:03 PM | Report abuse

And more then one player has really got burned when the team that gave him the "guarentee" traded out of the first round or just plain picked someone else.

There is so much gamesmanship that goes on surrounding these workouts amoung agents and GM's that it's often hard to know where to rate a player.

The Wiz could very well end up with two very servicable players from the late first, and early second, to add to Wall and Arenas. Blatche will be a year older and will have an offseason after getting heavy minutes to prepare. It makes a difference once a player gets to see what a grind it is to really be a "go to" guy that logs heavy minutes.

McGee will be the key in many ways, he needs to be relied on to play some real serious minutes next season. If he steps up, there seems to be the makings of a rotation. If he's not ready for the workload, this team is really in need of a center.

McGee would seem to be the guy that could really thrive playing with Wall in the pick and roll game. The kid should get a couple of easy scores a game off "Wall Balls" tossed up at the rim.
GM

Posted by: flohrtv | June 3, 2010 3:45 PM | Report abuse

Good to see that Pondexter was among the players that impressed the coaching staff. I like this kid's game. He is a good physical wing defender who finds the way to get big buckets when his team needs them and he rebounds well, too.

Robinson is a big time talent, but I doubt he will still be around when the Wiz pick.

I'd be thrilled if the Wiz find a way to come out of this draft with Wall, Gani Lawal, and Quincy Pondexter.

Posted by: SportzWiz | June 3, 2010 4:15 PM | Report abuse

I'm not sure I like Lawal over Booker, but either would be a nice late pick. In other news, this was posted on the ESPN rumors page:
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/features/rumors#16487

If true, Miami is trying to give up Beasley for nothing but cap space in a move to try and sign two max players. Chris Sheridan goes on to say: "Example A: Miami offers Beasley, Daequan Cook, James Jones, $3 million and a future No. 1 to Minnesota for basically nothing. The Heat thereby clear all their contracts and get their payroll down to zero (besides Wade), and the Wolves get the No. 2 pick of the '08 draft and a future No. 1."

I don't see why the Wizards wouldn't be keen on that deal. Beasley and Cook come off the books after next season, and we get an extra first round pick. The only downside is Jones' contract has 3 more seasons, but at a reasonable price. At only 21, Beasley is like having another top 10 pick this year added to the roster.

Even if we don't think Beasley can be counted on as a full-time starter in the future, he'd make a great off-the-bench scorer and rebounder. If we don't think we're going to be a destination for any free agents this offseason, it's almost a no-brainer.

Posted by: segastyle | June 3, 2010 6:02 PM | Report abuse

We should add Beasley he would be another
young stud

We need to add as much talent as possible

Posted by: grayterrence | June 3, 2010 7:06 PM | Report abuse

Turning a division rival into a dynasty doesn't seem very wise to me. Even for a low first round pick.

Posted by: djnnnou | June 3, 2010 7:06 PM | Report abuse

"McGee would seem to be the guy that could really thrive playing with Wall in the pick and roll game. The kid should get a couple of easy scores a game off "Wall Balls" tossed up at the rim.GM Posted by: flohrtv"

Yeah, he should. McGee's problem is still those big guys that push him around -- Hibbert, Marc Gasol, Bynum, Greg Oden if he comes back, and the rest of them. He'll have had another season in the weight room, but I dunno if it will be enough. Plus he still needs to refine that 12 foot jumper. That would make him much more dangerous in the half-court.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 3, 2010 7:24 PM | Report abuse

I saw the kid Magnum Rolle work out tape on youtube this kid is 6-11 and look's like a young KG. he can dribble,shoot and has a pretty good hook shot. he's fluid and can jump out the gym. they had him in yesterday if i'm not mistaking. i would love to see them darft this kid he cpould be a sleeper.

Posted by: dakel76 | June 3, 2010 8:27 PM | Report abuse

Big time pass on Beasley. No more undersized jumpshooting, no defense-playing PFs please, esp. one with a low bball IQ who routinely rides the pine at the end of close games.

He can play so he hasn't actually been a bust, but for the #2 overall pick, he's been a disappointment. He can be a contributor on a good team, but it'll likely be in a Corliss Williamson type hybrid forward of the bench role.

The Wizards would basically be 1-year renting two players (Beasley and Cooke) who likely won't be in future plans and be stuck with a marginally productive role player for 3 years and almost $15 mill. All for a "future #1" that, depending on what Miami does with all that cap space (and when they fork over the pick), might not be worth a whole lot. It's basically running in place without a lot of immediate impact and questionable long-term impact. Not a bad deal, per se, but it really doesn't produce a lot of tangible benefit from a rebuilding perspective.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 3, 2010 8:35 PM | Report abuse

"I saw the kid Magnum Rolle work out tape on youtube this kid is 6-11 and look's like a young KG. he can dribble,shoot and has a pretty good hook shot. he's fluid and can jump out the gym. they had him in yesterday if i'm not mistaking. i would love to see them darft this kid he cpould be a sleeper. Posted by: dakel76"

Only thing is, he's under 200lbs, raw, and will be 25 in February. Really struggled at LSU and looked much better against lesser competition at La Tech.

Free agent, maybe? Omar Samhan and the kid from DePaul might be a better bet.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 3, 2010 8:37 PM | Report abuse

Oh, I guess Magnum Rolle is a little heavier than 200. The college site has him listed at 225 and nbadraft.net at 220. Draft express has him at 200. So split the difference.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 3, 2010 8:42 PM | Report abuse

so samson 151 would you use a second round pick on him? and did you see his workout on youtube?

Posted by: dakel76 | June 3, 2010 8:53 PM | Report abuse

pondexter led Washington to two "upset" victories in the tournament. robinson could find a role here subbing for blatche. why would we want collins with wall and shaun livingston; he may be 'strong,' but he's still "5-11", can't get his own shot and doesn't shoot well.

Posted by: dcjazzman | June 3, 2010 9:56 PM | Report abuse

beasley has trouble paying attention in miami. does anyone think he's likely to pay more attention here just cuz he's asked to? the guy has potential, but he's a flake. we don't need another flake, regardless of how good of a deal we can make.

Posted by: dcjazzman | June 3, 2010 10:02 PM | Report abuse

You got a point and he from here that could be disaster.

Posted by: dakel76 | June 3, 2010 10:30 PM | Report abuse

"He can play so he hasn't actually been a bust, but for the #2 overall pick, he's been a disappointment."

I guess if you don't average 20/10 as a number 2 pick your second year you're already a disappointment. OF the last three drafts, he's still in the the top half of players, top third most likely. It's too early to call him a disappointment.

"a Corliss Williamson type hybrid forward of the bench role"

And we just have to give up a trade exception for that? I'd take that. If he's a top off-the-bench scorer for the next 5 years for us, that's still pretty good. His PER, if you consider that worth anything, was better last year than all but two of our players.

"doesn't produce a lot of tangible benefit from a rebuilding perspective"

It gets us a look at a highly drafted 21 year old who has shown he can play in the NBA, as well as the rights to re-up him for another year if we want.

Thing is, we have only 5 players under contract next year. 8 if we keep all three of our draft picks. We're going to need players, so we're going to have to sign at least 5 more, if not 7. Most of those will want more than a 1 year deal. This gives us three players, only one of whom we're 'stuck' with. If we had to give up something for Beasley that changes everything, but since we have to sign players, I'd take the 21 year old scorer with potential than a 28 year old 10th man-type.

Posted by: segastyle | June 3, 2010 10:48 PM | Report abuse

I like his game i think he can play the game that aint the problem with mike. his maturity levle and focus is what people is doging hin about. even D.Wade said he is going to be great player it's his mental focus is why the heat don't want him. Pat Wriley did not want him but everybody in the heat's organization begged him to draft Mike B. i bet he is kicking his self in the arse now. but i wolud take a chance on him for the right price i would not give up a lot to get him. maybe being near his mom can get his arse in order.

Posted by: dakel76 | June 3, 2010 11:19 PM | Report abuse

"I guess if you don't average 20/10 as a number 2 pick your second year you're already a disappointment. "

It's not all about numbers. Beasley has displayed a questionable work ethic, attitude, and bball IQ in Miami, a team that was expecting him to be a major contributor to their success and improvement. A guy taken with the number 2 overall pick should be having more impact than Beasley is having, whatever the numbers.

"OF the last three drafts, he's still in the the top half of players, top third most likely. It's too early to call him a disappointment."

The fact that they're reportedly trying to give him away for nothing suggests that the Miami Heat disagree with that assessment.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 3, 2010 11:37 PM | Report abuse

"And we just have to give up a trade exception for that? I'd take that. "

Just because something's on sale doesn't mean you have to buy it.

"If he's a top off-the-bench scorer for the next 5 years for us, that's still pretty good. His PER, if you consider that worth anything, was better last year than all but two of our players."

Well then it's a good thing for me that I consider PER pretty much worthless.

"It gets us a look at a highly drafted 21 year old who has shown he can play in the NBA, as well as the rights to re-up him for another year if we want."

That's exactly why I don't want him here.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 3, 2010 11:45 PM | Report abuse

"so samson 151 would you use a second round pick on him? and did you see his workout on youtube?Posted by: dakel76"

I did see it, and thanks for pointing it out. No, I think he's a free agent. I was actually a little more impressed by the DePaul kid -- a rebounder.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 4, 2010 12:03 AM | Report abuse

Mac Koshwal, that's the DePaul rebounder's name. Free agent, however. There are better guys out there in the second round.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 4, 2010 12:06 AM | Report abuse

It gets us a look at a highly drafted 21 year old who has shown he can play in the NBA, as well as the rights to re-up him for another year if we want.

Posted by: segastyle

It sounds great on paper, sega, but Beasley has shown himself to be a guy who doesn't work on D and has maturity / professionalism issues. Sound familiar? Like half of the Wizards currently under contract? As much as the Wiz do need to upgrade the talent pool, they also need to continue their institutional reset of how the expect their players to behave and play. With Blatche, Young, MCGee and Arenas, they'll already have their hands full next year.

Given his age and his talent, as a player Beasley might be worth considering, but factoring in the other issues, I don't think it's a good risk for the Wizards right now. The most damning part though, as Kal also mentioned, is that Miami is willing to give up on a 2nd overall pick two years into his career for essentially nothing.

Posted by: ts35 | June 4, 2010 12:15 AM | Report abuse

I will look him up.

Posted by: dakel76 | June 4, 2010 1:03 AM | Report abuse

Mac Koshwal, that's the DePaul rebounder's name. Free agent, however. There are better guys out there in the second round.

Posted by: Samson151

Definitely looks like the kind of guy they should try to pick up, and it also looks like the kind of guy who should go straight to the D-league. I don't say that as an insult. He looks exactly like the kind of kid who could benefit greatly from that kind of coaching attention. Big-time rebounding is one skill that tends to translate well from college to the pros.

Posted by: ts35 | June 4, 2010 1:16 AM | Report abuse

Samson 101 he rank's 65th 0ut of 100 and you think we should spend a number 35 pick on him over my kid?

Posted by: dakel76 | June 4, 2010 1:24 AM | Report abuse

dake176: spend a pick on who? I thought Koshwal would be a good undrafted free agent. The 35th pick should go to somebody like this:

Gani Lawal, GA Tech
Quincy Pondexter, Wash
Devin Ebanks, WVa
Jarvis Varnado, Miss St
Terrico White, Miss
Craig Brackins, Iowa St

Or whoever is best available.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 4, 2010 8:54 AM | Report abuse

" Big-time rebounding is one skill that tends to translate well from college to the pros.Posted by: ts35"

I think I've read that before somewhere, and it sure seems like it would. If you have the size and strength, and you're willing to fight for position, you should be able to rebound at any level. Same can't be said for scoring or defense.

I recall the great Warriors rebounder Clyde Lee, who couldn't jump over a gum wrapper and was almost entirely without muscle definition, saying that the great majority of rebounds were below the rim and his job was simply to make sure he was there when they arrived. Clyde averaged 10.3 boards a game -- over ten seasons.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 4, 2010 9:00 AM | Report abuse

Is Kevin Seraphin working out anywhere? All I see are youtube clips of him whooping inferior euroleaguers...but the drafts have him ahead of Gani Lawal

Posted by: divi3 | June 4, 2010 9:00 AM | Report abuse

Miami's willingness to give up Beasley has more to do with Riley's need to build a winner around D Wade now then a declaration that Beasley's a bust.

Like I said yesterday, there are going to be teams willing to dump a pick if the Wiz are willing to take on a contract with it. The thing I don't like about the deal that Miami is putting on the table is no #1 this year, and Beasley's not a center. The Wiz need a center, not a "tweener" forward.

I think the Wiz could target a pick in the 16-25 range with the idea in mind of going after a couple of specific players. A future #1, you're not even sure where the pick will be, or who might be in the draft.

If the Wiz could make a move and come up with a guy like Whiteside, or Alibi, with that extra pick to develop at center it could be a real worthwhile move. With a true center on the roster McGee could play in rotation with Blatche and the center in a hybred 4-5 role, which would fit his talents to the T.

With a true point that can get out and run the break, a defensive minded shotblocker in the post becomes an even more important fixture on the court. Any lack of a true low post game from a center isn't as big of a liability because Wall's going to lead the team on the break before a center can post up anyway. And the center can get easy chances at the rim in the pick and roll game.

The Wiz could use some serious size up front at the 5, Ernie either needs to find that extra pick in the draft to move up from 30 and draft one, sign one, or trade for one...
GM

Posted by: flohrtv | June 4, 2010 9:07 AM | Report abuse

What's the scuttlebutt on Dominic McGuire fitting in to Coach Saunders' plays? He's unrestricted FA now, so would the Wizards hire him back? Has he developed his jump shot since he left?

Posted by: rickgonz | June 4, 2010 9:20 AM | Report abuse

I believe Kevin Seraphin hurt is knee so is not able to work out for 2 or 3 weeks for teams.

Posted by: usiel3 | June 4, 2010 9:43 AM | Report abuse

If you have the size and strength, and you're willing to fight for position, you should be able to rebound at any level. Same can't be said for scoring or defense.

I recall the great Warriors rebounder Clyde Lee, who couldn't jump over a gum wrapper and was almost entirely without muscle definition, saying that the great majority of rebounds were below the rim and his job was simply to make sure he was there when they arrived. Clyde averaged 10.3 boards a game -- over ten seasons.

Posted by: Samson151

They were talking about it a bit last night in regards to Rondo. It seems that it's not so much about any one thing in particular (though size and strength certainly help), there's a variety of ways to be a good rebounder, as evidenced by the wide range of guys / body styles who have been good rebounders. Obviously the big guys, but also guys like Marion / Rodman. Some guys rebound by dominating a spot on the floor, some guys by judging where the ball is going to go, being quick leapers, quick repeat leapers, yada yada yada.

Posted by: ts35 | June 4, 2010 10:12 AM | Report abuse

If the Heat renounce all of their FAs and Wade opts out, they'll have about $7-8 mill in committed salaries next season (against a projected $56 mil salary cap). That's more than enough money to sign Wade and another FA to max deals with money left over to fill other needs. And given that they'll still have to fill out a full roster, they wouldn't be giving away a young, productive #2 overall pick two years into his career if they foresaw him being a key piece of their future success.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 4, 2010 10:39 AM | Report abuse

"That's more than enough money to sign Wade and another FA to max deals with money left over to fill other needs"

I wonder if in an ideal world Riley wouldn't just let Beasley go and focus on signing Chris Bosh. That would give him two primary scorers to build his club around.

That is, if Wade stays.

Money's primary, but I don't know what superstar (and there are two in this class) would want to go to Chicago and play in Jordan's shadow.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 4, 2010 11:06 AM | Report abuse

"I believe Kevin Seraphin hurt is knee so is not able to work out for 2 or 3 weeks for teams.Posted by: usiel3"

I hadn't heard that. Even at 6'9" he seems like a true NBA center and somebody who won't last past the 20th pick.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 4, 2010 11:11 AM | Report abuse

The Wiz need a center, not a "tweener" forward.

Posted by: flohrtv | June 4, 2010 9:07 AM | Report abuse

GM

Hopefully it was Abe who kept telling Ernie to trade for, sign and draft "tweeners" instead of position players?

Look at the 2 teams in the championship they are built like a real basketball team should look like...

Bos

Point guard who passes the ball

Shooting guard who can shoot

Small forward who can slash and get to the basket

Power forward who can post up his man

Center who can use his body to take up space

LA

an off the ball Point guard who can hit an open jumper

a Shooting guard like Mike who can take over the game because he can hurt you in so many ways

a small forward who can play shut down "D"

A finesse power forward who scores and gets you some blocks

a center who is big

Wiz

Wall? Finally a true point guard

? Need a shooting guard

Al Thorton small forward?

Blatche Power forward

McGee Center

Wall is a true point guard,

AB is a finesse power forward which means the Wizards need a big body Center to play with him

I would like to see them fill the small forward slot with a player who can take the ball to the rim and shooting guard who can shoot.

if Gil can do for the Wizards what Ben Gordon did for the Bulls I like him as the 6th man

Al Thorton is an average player and like your idea of Mcgee playing a rotation role.

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | June 4, 2010 11:12 AM | Report abuse

rondo's wingspan and freakshow hands must account for some of his rebounding prowess

Posted by: divi3 | June 4, 2010 11:17 AM | Report abuse

"I wonder if in an ideal world Riley wouldn't just let Beasley go and focus on signing Chris Bosh. That would give him two primary scorers to build his club around."

It's not an either/or situation. They'll have more than enough cap space to re-sign Wade and sign a Bosh/James/Stoudemire without moving Beasley. There have been reports coming out of Miami concerning their unhappiness with Beasley's attitude, work ethic, and learning curve since last season.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 4, 2010 11:25 AM | Report abuse

There are a lot of things that factor into being a great rebounder, but it all starts with a basic commitment to going after the ball.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 4, 2010 11:27 AM | Report abuse

i think it was sir chuck who commented that jordan could grab 18boards a night if that's ALL he did a la rodman at the time.

Posted by: divi3 | June 4, 2010 11:38 AM | Report abuse

#35 will most likely be a combo guard now.

Lithuanian big man likely to pull out of Draft

Seraphin Will Likely Wait Until Next Year

via HoopsHype

Posted by: djnnnou | June 4, 2010 12:21 PM | Report abuse

daaamn, that significantly hurts are chances of landing lawal

Posted by: divi3 | June 4, 2010 12:32 PM | Report abuse

I'd agree 78', with Blatche at the 4 the Wiz need a true center, not a 4 trying to play big. I also don't like some scenario's getting thrown around where people suggest moving Blatche to center and getting another 4.

That's why I don't really think Beasley is a fit for the Wiz.

Josh Howard may be a fit for the Wiz at shooting guard or small forward. He's got the kind of game that could work well running with Wall. I doubt they'll pick up his option, but he could still be back.

I met Wes once years ago, man has some of the strongest hands I've ever seen. Strong hands, a big butt on top of two tree trunks for thighs, even at at about 6'5 1/2" he could rebound against the likes of Russell and Wilt.

Rebounding is so much about getting position before the ball even goes up. Rondo does a great job at anticipating misses and getting to a spot before anyone else, much like Rodman did.

After drafting Wall, the Wiz really need a space eater in the lane more then anything else. I think that's why they may be targeting another pick. The real big guys in this draft will likely go before the 30th pick, but would seem to be around in the 15-25 pick range.
GM

Posted by: flohrtv | June 4, 2010 1:27 PM | Report abuse

After drafting Wall, the Wiz really need a space eater in the lane more then anything else.
Posted by: flohrtv

I'd agree with that from a positional standpoint, but the one thing I don't think the Wiz should do in this draft is get so focused on filling slots that they pass on better talent at other positions.

The Wizards aren't gonna turn this mess around in one offseason, so there's no particular value in trying to draft for a specific need, especially since they have needs everywhere. The value is in being able to pick up the guys who project to be the best players regardless. If one of those guys happens to be a big, or if you have a bunch of guys basically equal and you pick the big guy out of the group, that makes sense. But reaching for a guy like Zoubek or someone like that, just to fill a need would not be a good use of our picks this year.

So if the Wiz come out of the draft with Wall, a SG and a SF or backup PG, or two SGs or whatever, I'm fine with that, as long as those guys look to be good pro prospects. Unlikely that it goes down that, I'm just sayin'. Our real biggest 'needs' are talent and character.

Posted by: ts35 | June 4, 2010 2:16 PM | Report abuse

"I'd agree with that from a positional standpoint, but the one thing I don't think the Wiz should do in this draft is get so focused on filling slots that they pass on better talent at other positions."

I agree in principle, particularly with the #30 pick, because there's a guaranteed, multiyear contract at stake. But I also think that with the second round pick they can maybe afford to take a flyer on a developmental player who might have potential to fill a specific need. Now, if the perceived upside gap between the best remaining big and the best remaining guard/sf is huge in favor of the wings, then go for the small guy, no question. But if they're roughly the same with maybe a slight edge towards the wing . . . well, let's face it, the odds of any player they take in the 2nd sticking and being a meaningful contributor are slim, so if they're gonna gamble anyway, they may as well gamble big.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 4, 2010 2:41 PM | Report abuse

that's the thing, there wont be large perceived differences in the players available at 35th...so why not go for the big as it's a crapshoot anyway? i agree about not reaching too far on the 30th....but i'd hate to come out of this draft with Wall plus some wiry 'tweeners

Posted by: divi3 | June 4, 2010 2:49 PM | Report abuse

Yep, we're more or less in the same ballpark Kal. It just seems to me like there are a lot of talented combos Gs, 2s, and 3s at the end of the first, top of the second. It seems to me that's where a lot of the value of this draft is. If a guy like Lawal is sitting there, you take him. But I don't want them taking someone who's 15 players down on their list just because he fits a need. Every position is a need on this team.

On a side note, Barry Farms / Goodman League play is about to begin again I think. Hopefully the Wizards will assign an intern to hang out at the court full time and turn Gilbert around if he shows up to play.

Posted by: ts35 | June 4, 2010 2:58 PM | Report abuse

i'd hate to come out of this draft with Wall plus some wiry 'tweeners

Posted by: divi3

For me, I'd hate to come out of this draft having passed on some guys who can play in order to draft a big stiff who never sees the court.

Posted by: ts35 | June 4, 2010 3:04 PM | Report abuse

You know, in a "Let's draft Pecherov because he's a big, instead of Rondo" kind of way.

Posted by: ts35 | June 4, 2010 3:05 PM | Report abuse

Some great points here. As I look back going into last season, I was very optimistic about the Wizards being among the best in the East.

Now, that we are a lottery team as some like to say, I still feel extremely optimistic about this year going forward.

One player might be the difference in us winning 20 games or 40.

That one guy could be at the Center position along with McGee taking a leap in his game this year. No pun intended.

Wall, Arenas, Blatche, McGee, and maybe if Livingston stays, the right mix to mesh with this group might win enough games to be borderline competitive.

Could we possibly dare to suppose that we could put together a group just as competitive as Charlotte was last year?

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | June 4, 2010 3:20 PM | Report abuse

EG thought Pech was the next Dirk.

Posted by: divi3 | June 4, 2010 3:22 PM | Report abuse

"It just seems to me like there are a lot of talented combos Gs, 2s, and 3s at the end of the first, top of the second."

Sure, but that's because there's simply more of those guys to be had, period. There pretty much always are; your odds of finding a keeper wing player late are just better because of supply and demand. Bigs who can actual play meaningful impactful NBA minutes are always harder to find, no matter where you draft. Sometimes you gotta take a risk to get a payoff. Millsap, Okur, Boozer, and (yes) Blair are examples (which is another lesson: toughness can come in an undersized package). Hell, Brad Miller and Ben Wallace weren't even drafted and they're both multiple All-Stars. Odds are slim, but it can happen.

"For me, I'd hate to come out of this draft having passed on some guys who can play in order to draft a big stiff who never sees the court."

Yeah, I got no inherent problem with "wiry tweeners" as long as they're wiry tweeners with fully charged motors and a solid work ethic (sort of like Dom McGuire).

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 4, 2010 3:24 PM | Report abuse

by the time the 35th pick rolls around, NOBODY has any real clue as to whether an available player is going to make it in the league or not. It's like another lotto.

Posted by: divi3 | June 4, 2010 3:44 PM | Report abuse

Character
Attitude
Passion for the game
Basketball IQ
Talent
Need

I hope Ernie is gonna use something of this order when he makes his 2nd & 3rd picks.

Posted by: VBFan | June 4, 2010 3:52 PM | Report abuse

"They'll have more than enough cap space to re-sign Wade and sign a Bosh/James/Stoudemire without moving Beasley." - kalo_rama

True, but the thinking is now that they can go after three. See here: http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/winderman-dumping-beasley-might-be-heats-best-option.php

"There have been reports coming out of Miami concerning their unhappiness with Beasley's attitude, work ethic, and learning curve since last season." - kalo_rama

There have been those reports, and we know he went to rehab, which seems to suggest he had other issues that weren't just the typical immature negative 'me-against-the-world' attitude. Then this past season they played him mostly at the 3, out of position, and they didn't like the results. He is a tweener, not a true PF or SF. but I think flohrtv has it right when he says,

"Miami's willingness to give up Beasley has more to do with Riley's need to build a winner around D Wade now then a declaration that Beasley's a bust." -

I guess I just don't see where we lose on a deal like that. Either he turns out to fit great as a larger SF playing alongside a skinny PF (Blatche), a great scoring forward off the bench, or ends up not being something we want. If the first two happen, we can keep him for another year at a good price, then try to resign him. If the third happens, his salary comes off the books next summer. If the Wiz are going to go into full rebuilding mode, getting looks at young players with obvious talent is something we shouldn't pass up, IMO.

I'm also not worried about his attitude permeating the team. Wall is mentally strong. He dealt with Cousins all season, the national spotlight, Kentucky fans, and possibly the dirtiest coach in college basketball. He's a leader. If Beasley's issues were as a team troublemaker, that would be one thing, but they seem to have been only directed inward upon himself.

If the Heat are willing to do it without requiring us to take Jones' contract on, then I think it's even more of a good thing.

Posted by: segastyle | June 4, 2010 4:10 PM | Report abuse

Sure, but that's because there's simply more of those guys to be had, period.
Posted by: kalo_rama

That's generally true. I just keep trying to go back through past drafts to check my perception. Because it seems to me that this year, more so than most, the end of the first / top of the second is stacked with 2's and 3's who have the classic 'lottery level talent, but has yet to put it together' tag. It's a dangerous tag, because it's often synonymous with 'underachiever'.

It just seems like in previous years, the end of the first ends up being a lot more about reaching for bigs, un-athletic guys who are great shooters and undersized PGs who have dropped. Like I said, trying to go back through to check and see if that's a reality or just my perception.

Posted by: ts35 | June 4, 2010 4:14 PM | Report abuse

I'd like to see the Wizards move up to secure a long athletic help defender at the SF spot like Pondexter or Robinson. Then they can take a combo guard and big with the other picks. They may end up reaching a bit with each pick, but the Rookie Salary Scale allows that.

Looks like Atlanta's pick #24 is still for sale.
Atlanta Hawks: Don’t Expect Immediate Help From Draft

Posted by: djnnnou | June 4, 2010 4:16 PM | Report abuse

"I'm also not worried about his attitude permeating the team. Wall is mentally strong. He dealt with Cousins all season, the national spotlight, Kentucky fans, and possibly the dirtiest coach in college basketball. He's a leader."

People are piling a lot up on Wall's plate, given that he hasn't been drafted yet. The way I see it: (A) Cousins is one problem child and (B) college ain't the NBA. As of now, McGee, Blatche, and Young are still on the roster and they all have issues in this area. Bringing in another young guy/peer who has similar issues is adding additional fuel to an already volatile mix. Besides, Dwayne Wade is acknowledged as a pretty good leader, and he didn't seem to have much luck pulling Beasley's head from his ass.

"If Beasley's issues were as a team troublemaker, that would be one thing, but they seem to have been only directed inward upon himself."

How does that make it better? I never said the guy is a cancer who will infect the whole locker room. But he doesn't have to be for his attitude to be a problem. Even if his issues with motivation, focus, and game comprehension only apply to him, they still affect the quality/effectiveness os his play on court, which means they still affect the team as a whole.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 4, 2010 4:31 PM | Report abuse

Bucks observation after working out Lawal:

"He measured reasonably well in Chicago, checking in at an even 6'9" in shoes, 233 pounds, and with a 7'0" wingspan, but nothing he does really wows you--just a hard-working, tough guy."

Sounds like just what we need

Posted by: divi3 | June 4, 2010 4:34 PM | Report abuse

Sounds like just what we need

I don't get the Gani Lawal love. The few times I watched Lawal play he was only looking for his own shot. His A/TO ratio(.4/2.2) is terrible, so I don't think I caught him on a couple of bad games. And in interviews he has that same "I'm too good to be a role player" vibe that Haywood has.

Posted by: djnnnou | June 4, 2010 4:57 PM | Report abuse

"Miami's willingness to give up Beasley has more to do with Riley's need to build a winner around D Wade now then a declaration that Beasley's a bust." -

I guess I just don't see where we lose on a deal like that.
Posted by: segastyle

I understand what you're saying, but do you see the sort of inherent problem with flohr's statement?

Riley's just trying to build a winner.....and Beasley doesn't factor into that. I.e. not part of a winning formula.

He definitely has the ability to score at the pro level, but it's not just about talent, it's about building a team. That plays offense and defense. We already have enough guys who are defensively challenged. What we have to lose is spending yet another year going in the wrong direction. Spending playing time on a player who doesn't help the team get where we want to go. It's part of the same problem I have with Arenas playing for the Wiz this year. If he's going to spend another year half-arsing it on D, does it matter if he helps us win 35 instead of 25? The question with any player is does he help us get closer to winning 55 and competing for a title. Miami seems convinced that Beasley is not that kind of guy. Since they've won a title recently and Riley has won his share, I'm willing to take their word on it.

Posted by: ts35 | June 4, 2010 5:08 PM | Report abuse

All I've read is that Lawal is a great kid who is extremely hard-working and very coachable. If in fact he's got Haywood's demeanor, well, everybody knows where I stand on that!

Posted by: divi3 | June 4, 2010 5:31 PM | Report abuse

Pondexter baaaaaaaaaaby!!!!!!

Posted by: Bullzards80 | June 4, 2010 6:07 PM | Report abuse

Pondexter baaaaaaaaaaaaaby!!

Posted by: Bullzards80 | June 4, 2010 6:21 PM | Report abuse

Hey does anyone think we should get Danny Ferry to replace Grunfeld? Ferry is from here, went to Dematha, and his father Bob Ferry was a longtime GM of the Bullets.

Posted by: Darnell1 | June 4, 2010 9:43 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: Darnell1 | June 4, 2010 9:51 PM | Report abuse

I don't get the Gani Lawal love. The few times I watched Lawal play he was only looking for his own shot. His A/TO ratio(.4/2.2) is terrible, so I don't think I caught him on a couple of bad games. And in interviews he has that same "I'm too good to be a role player" vibe that Haywood has.

Posted by: djnnnou | June 4, 2010 4:57 PM

Seeing as I've probably been singing the praises of Gani Lawal longer than most on this blog, I will respond to this post.

I've seen Lawal play many times over the years and the facts that he is a poor ball handler and weak at passing out of the post do not escape me. Additionally, he does not have a good jumpshot and struggles to make FTs. But, people get too caught-up on the offensive side of things (same reason so many here love Amare).

He does so many of the little things that can help a finesse team like the Wiz. He rebounds by establishing position and boxing-out rather than just trying to out jump guys. He sets hard screens, moves without the ball, and plays physical defense. He struggles to create for himself, but on this team that would be a blessing not a curse. He's the guy that will only score 6pts, but leave you feeling like he was all over the court or leave you scratching you head at the end of a game trying to recall how he had 16pts.

The best comparison I can make is to say Paul Milsap, only taller and much longer arms.

Posted by: SportzWiz | June 5, 2010 2:28 AM | Report abuse

WBos

Point guard who passes the ball

Shooting guard who can shoot

Small forward who can slash and get to the basket

Power forward who can post up his man

Center who can use his body to take up space

LA

an off the ball Point guard who can hit an open jumper

a Shooting guard like Mike who can take over the game because he can hurt you in so many ways

a small forward who can play shut down "D"

A finesse power forward who scores and gets you some blocks

a center who is big

Posted by: bulletsfan78
hat you are really saying is that there really is no true formula for winning a championship because these 2 teams don't have that much in common except size down in the paint. They have different types of point guards, small forwards, shooting guards, power forwards, and centers.

I think everybody realizes that you need 5 players on the court. What you really need is 5 ball players who have roles and plays within their roles. You also need players capable of playing both ends too. Then you also need a coach that commands respect like Phil Jackson and is respected by the refs too. Doc, he is not in Jackson's class but he coaches Boston, the BOSTON CELTICS.

The Lakers also have a "cancer" on the team, Artest, so Arenas can be a part of a winning team, but that goes for everybody because nobody wins by themselves.

Posted by: G-Man11 | June 5, 2010 6:18 AM | Report abuse

Vladimir Veremeenko is about 30 yrs old now. The Wizards should trade his rights for another second round draft pick, to get something for him while they can.

Posted by: PostSubscriber | June 5, 2010 6:57 AM | Report abuse

"Vladimir Veremeenko is about 30 yrs old now. The Wizards should trade his rights for another second round draft pick, to get something for him while they can.Posted by: PostSubscriber"

LOL he'll be 26 in a couple months. He's a good basketball player, but nowhere near the 6'11" he's listed at, and not quick enough to defend NBA scoring forwards.

In other words, who'd give a 2nd rounder for the guy?

Posted by: Samson151 | June 5, 2010 8:53 AM | Report abuse

"The Lakers also have a 'cancer' on the team, Artest, so Arenas can be a part of a winning team, but that goes for everybody because nobody wins by themselves.Posted by: G-Man11"

Artest is a cancer? A nutball, definitely. But a team cancer? I don't see it.

A difference of some relevance to fans of a team that owns Gilbert Arenas.

It's rare that the same player is a disruptive force on several teams. Even Zach Randolph is widely appreciated in Memphis, and most of us had given up on that guy. Eddy Curry is the current role model for clubhouse cancer, but he wasn't in Chicago, and may not be wherever he ends up. Rasheed Wallace was believed to be something of a cancer until he got to Detroit.

Stephon Marbury was once a popular player, remember. Now look at him.

I think the Heat need to move Beasley now, before his attitude gets even worse. Not to a club like Washington, but somewhere where the media spotlight isn't on him and he can get back to playing basketball, which is probably all he wants to do. Like Webber in Sacramento, maybe something will come of it.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 5, 2010 9:07 AM | Report abuse

Michael Beasley is only 21.
Cancer?? I doubt it. Off the court problems...definitely.
We went thru this with Blatche his first couple of years.
Maybe Beasley will catch on to what is more important in his life.
He could be a steal for the right team.
Hard to imagine that he avgs 15 & 7 and no one would want him.

Posted by: VBFan | June 5, 2010 9:45 AM | Report abuse

Re: Beasley

I don't think the biggest issues w/Beasley are necessarily his production or even his work-ethic/attitude or even his B-ball IQ.

I think teams (including the Heat) look at Beasley and think "damaged goods" mentally/emotionally.

That whole episode in the offseason when he checked himself into rehab and apparently was suffering from some other issues has got to be a major major red-flag.

Teams would be willing to take a gamble on a 21-year old prospect like Beasley, no matter how raw he may be from a strictly b-ball POV - e.g. even Kwame Brown continues to find teams willing to give him another try.

But if the guy is a legit liability to have some kind of nervous breakdown or substance abuse issues, then it's a whole different ballgame.

Posted by: p1funk | June 5, 2010 9:53 AM | Report abuse

I think part of the rest of the issue with Beasley is that teams will have to commit at least a couple of years to him in order to get the kind of return on their investment they hope for. It's a tough call given his level of talent, but given his issues it makes it harder to justify.

Posted by: ts35 | June 5, 2010 10:20 AM | Report abuse

Hey does anyone think we should get Danny Ferry to replace Grunfeld? Ferry is from here, went to Dematha, and his father Bob Ferry was a longtime GM of the Bullets.

Posted by: Darnell1 | June 4, 2010 9:43 PM | Report abuse


Is Danny Ferry really an upgrade? LeBron James was pretty much calling shots for that organization.

Not sure how you look at the Cleveland scenario and make a judgement on Ferry as a GM or Brown as a coach for that matter.

I've come up here and ripped Grunfeld to high heaven on many many occasions. I don't know if the summer humidity is getting to me, but I'm starting to wonder if keeping him around would be an OK move IF IF the whole decision to max-out Gil and AJ were Abe's call, and he was just following marching orders b/c I can see that scenario playing out.

But if it was really EG's call to give those contracts to those guys, then he can't stay.

Posted by: p1funk | June 5, 2010 10:34 AM | Report abuse

"IF the whole decision to max-out Gil and AJ were Abe's call, and he was just following marching orders b/c I can see that scenario playing out.But if it was really EG's call to give those contracts to those guys, then he can't stay.Posted by: p1funk"

Well, whose money was it?

That's whose call it was.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 5, 2010 10:45 AM | Report abuse

p1,

I have a variety of theories (some contradict each other) on EG's tenure here.

The latest one I am considering involves EG trying to go forward with the obviously flawed "Big 3". I wonder if part of EG's decision to stick with the trio revolved around Abe's failing health, and the organization's desire to try to win or at least go deep in the playoffs while Abe was still around to enjoy it.

No way to know if it's true, but I do wonder.

That being said, plenty of evidence in EG's own relatively successful past with NY and Milwaukee to say that he might have been fully on board with or the motivator for Gil's and AJ's contract.

I know Gil's contract sucks now, but it didn't bother me as much then. At the time, even with his D liabilities and injury, he was a 26 year old coming off of back-to-back seasons averaging nearly 30pts, with generally good numbers across the board. For a team starving for star power, hard to turn your back on that.

The Aj contract bothers me more. In part because I think it was pretty clear at that point that the Big 3 was flawed, and AJ had already demonstrated a pronounced lack of D ability. Throw in that he was already getting up there and they gave him a four year deal. I'm not trying to brush over the good qualities that AJ did bring, but in terms of trying to take the next step, I think resigning him was a mistake.

Whether that was EG's preference or not, again, we'll never know, but we know he was being influenced by Gil to resign him, and I'll bet, given his love for AJ, Abe was also leaning that way.

I think EG and Ferry are essentially similarly competent GMs (judge that comment as you will), so picking one over the other I think would come down to their philosophy or strategy on team building. If we were going to replace EG, I would almost rather pluck someone from the Portland or Spurs organization as others have suggested.

Posted by: ts35 | June 5, 2010 10:58 AM | Report abuse

"The Aj contract bothers me more. In part because I think it was pretty clear at that point that the Big 3 was flawed, and AJ had already demonstrated a pronounced lack of D ability. Throw in that he was already getting up there and they gave him a four year deal. I'm not trying to brush over the good qualities that AJ did bring, but in terms of trying to take the next step, I think resigning him was a mistake.
Whether that was EG's preference or not, again, we'll never know, but we know he was being influenced by Gil to resign him, and I'll bet, given his love for AJ, Abe was also leaning that way.posted by ts35"

OK, I'm not following the logic in the above. You're saying we'll never know if EG wanted to re-sign Jamison -- but we do know Arenas wanted it, and maybe Pollin too?

So what does that tell us about Grunfeld?

Seems to me, not much.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 5, 2010 11:48 AM | Report abuse

So what does that tell us about Grunfeld?

Seems to me, not much.

Posted by: Samson151

What exactly did we know for sure anyway? To some, apparently Abe dying is the best thing to happen to this franchise in 30 years and EG is an idiot should be fired. To others, like melodious_thunk, EG walks on water. People take the things they like and don't like and hang them on whoever they want without a lot of basis in anything substantial.

I thought you were the one who didn't like to get into predicting or reading too much into the unknowable.

If I had a point -- and it's a fair bet that I really don't and am just rambling -- is that ultimately it is never going to be clear who were the prime motivators for either of those deals. You can make legitimate cases for 100 different scenarios. I doubt EG will ever tell, because I don't think that's the kind of guy he is.

What I do think is that he has enough fingerprints on the team as a whole over his tenure to say whether he should stay or go, rather than just focusing on those two contracts.

For me, even though he has had some successes, I have never been keen on the kinds of players he drafts. Since that will be a big focus for this team's rebuilding over the next few years, I would probably go in a different direction.

Posted by: ts35 | June 5, 2010 12:33 PM | Report abuse

What I do think is that he has enough fingerprints on the team as a whole over his tenure to say whether he should stay or go, rather than just focusing on those two contracts.

Which led me into a side tangent, since p1funk put those two contracts at the heart of his argument, that even if you think both contracts were EG's doing, I think Gil contract is a little more defensible than AJ's.

Posted by: ts35 | June 5, 2010 12:37 PM | Report abuse

"It's rare that the same player is a disruptive force on several teams. Even Zach Randolph is widely appreciated in Memphis, and most of us had given up on that guy. Eddy Curry is the current role model for clubhouse cancer, but he wasn't in Chicago, and may not be wherever he ends up. Rasheed Wallace was believed to be something of a cancer until he got to Detroit."

Posted by: Samson151 | June 5, 2010 9:07 AM

I'm guessing the appreciation for Randolph may be less widespread following the allegations of his involvement in drug dealing. Scott Skiles (Curry's coach in Chicago) made no bones about having issues with his attitude and lax work ethic; it wasn't as bad as it got in NY, but it was still there. Rasheed was basically the same guy in Detroit that he was in Portland and has been for most of the season in Boston. The only difference was that people were willing to put up with/overlook his nonsense when the Pistons were going to the Finals and winning a title. His last 2 or 3 years in Detroit he feuded with the coach and was a lightning rod for fans' ire because of his meltdowns in the playoffs costing them chances to win.

There comes a point in an adult's life when you simply are who you are and major changes in personality are unlikely without a significant amount of outside intervention/assistance/work. Beasley may or may not have hit that point, but I really don't think the upside of his talent is worth the risk in finding out, given how many potentially troublesome personalities the Wizards already have to deal with. He's a 6'7" (maybe) tweener forward who's not quick enough to be fully effective at the 3 and not strong enough to be fully effective at the 4. Even putting aside his personal issues, I don't think his on court value is so high as to be worth all the fuss.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 5, 2010 12:52 PM | Report abuse

"I thought you were the one who didn't like to get into predicting or reading too much into the unknowable."

LOL that's true, and it's why I couldn't figure out what you were saying. Hard to base a reliable conclusion on the absence of real evidence (not that people don't try to do it all the time, but they fail).

So it sounds like what you're saying is we should replace Ernie but not because of the Arenas and Jamison contracts, but more because of his team building philosophy.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 5, 2010 2:02 PM | Report abuse

I guess my point would be that 'clubhouse cancer' is ultimately a relative term. Some guys are malignant by nature, and with others it's more situational. Some NBA players grew up in hotbeds of criminal activity and it's not much of a surprise when they experience behavior problems later in life. Others are spoiled offspring of a corrupt youth basketball culture. A few are just a-holes.

It's not as bad as boxing, of course, or NFL football, but there's still some old-fashioned sociopathy in the makeup of many basketball players.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 5, 2010 2:10 PM | Report abuse

The drafts have been 100% EGs decisions (one would think) and what does the organization have to show for it?

the oft maligned Dray Blatche and


Posted by: divi3 | June 5, 2010 2:49 PM | Report abuse

'Wall commutes between his apartment near the Grove and a gym in Reseda, where he works out for five to six hours a day lifting weights, grinding through speed and agility drills and shooting hundreds of jumpers. He said he spends most of his spare time playing NBA2K10 on XBox or watching DVDs -- and waiting for draft day'

GOTTA LOVE IT

Posted by: divi3 | June 5, 2010 3:57 PM | Report abuse

"The drafts have been 100% EGs decisions (one would think) and what does the organization have to show for it?the oft maligned Dray Blatche and..Posted by: divi3"

The draft you can definitely hold him accountable for. All you have to do is show that he's been much less successful than other GMs who were drafting in the same area he did during that period.

Go ahead...

Posted by: Samson151 | June 5, 2010 5:43 PM | Report abuse

Just a note on Beasley: from his Wiki article --

"Beasley also attended a number of high schools including Bowie High School (Bowie, Maryland), National Christian Academy (Fort Washington, Maryland), The Pendleton School (a section of the IMG Academy in Bradenton, Florida), Riverdale Baptist School (Upper Marlboro, Maryland), Oak Hill Academy (Mouth of Wilson, Virginia), and Notre Dame Preparatory School (Fitchburg, Massachusetts).[3]"

Sounds like a traveling circus.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 5, 2010 5:59 PM | Report abuse

Two-time NBA MVP an global basketball icon LeBron James shocked the nation Saturday afternoon in a press conference in Cleveland. With many questioning why he was holding a press conference with no major announcements to be made, James quickly ended any ideas by announcing his retirement.

"I'm retiring." James abruptly told the media, those being the first words he announced.

The announcement sent the sports world into immediate amazement.

"How could he retire at the top of his game? It's like King Kong retiring at the top of the Empire State Building. Like Martha Stewart right before she went to prison," said a disgruntled Cavs fan.

James's retirement may be the most unexpected in sports history. One of sports' most recognized figures going out while at the pinnacle of the league and without a championship. What is even more amazing is that he did this about a month before free agency opens up, where he is guaranteed huge money.

On top of this, James said that he plans on becoming a "master gardener".

"I figured I'd do gardening because it's the closest thing to playing in the (Madison Square) Garden itself. So I'll be playing in a garden either way. Isn't it great?"

If that's what you want us to think, LeBron, then it's great.

He announced that he plans to take a class ("my first class since high school") on gardening to learn all the tricks and trades of the recreation. In essence, he plans to become a "master gardener".

Rumors were that James had narrowed his preffered destinations down to Chicago, New York, and New Jersey. But he now will be in a garden in Akron.

Did he retire as a result of the pressure? Did he lose his love of the game? Injury? These questions are consuming sports writers and fans alike.

In seven seasons with Cleveland, James averaged 27.8 ppg, 7 apg, 7 rpg, .9 blocks/game, and shot 47.5 percent from the field. He won two MVP awards, but was criticized for his play in the Playoffs. An NBA title eluded James.

As for a nickname, James said he won't have any problems. Known as "The Chosen One" in the NBA, LeBron told media that he wanted to The Chosen Petunia".

Whatever you say, LeBron.

Posted by: suliman215 | June 5, 2010 6:25 PM | Report abuse

LeBron James Announces Retirement to Become Master Gardener (SATIRE)

Posted by: suliman215 | June 5, 2010 6:26 PM | Report abuse

It's rare that the same player is a disruptive force on several teams. Even Zach Randolph is widely appreciated in Memphis, and most of us had given up on that guy. Eddy Curry is the current role model for clubhouse cancer, but he wasn't in Chicago, and may not be wherever he ends up. Rasheed Wallace was believed to be something of a cancer until he got to Detroit.
Posted by: Samson151

What I'm gathering from this is that we should trade for Beasley, but only when he turns 30 and has played for 3 or 4 teams.

Posted by: ts35 | June 5, 2010 6:50 PM | Report abuse

"The drafts have been 100% EGs decisions (one would think) and what does the organization have to show for it?the oft maligned Dray Blatche and..Posted by: divi3"

The draft you can definitely hold him accountable for. All you have to do is show that he's been much less successful than other GMs who were drafting in the same area he did during that period.

Go ahead...

Posted by: Samson151

I would say EG is pretty decidedly middle of the pack with his drafts. He missed a few, he's found a few. I'm not particularly fond of Nick Young, but he'll be in the league for a while. Obviously AB. McGee has the talent, just waiting to see if it will develop. Even McGuire will likely be in the league for a while. Then there's Pech and Veer. And call it 50/50 on trades of the #5 picks.

I just don't like the style of player he seems to find. I don't know how to categorize it, it just always seems on some level that even the good players he finds are somehow less than the sum of their parts.

Posted by: ts35 | June 5, 2010 7:01 PM | Report abuse

"The drafts have been 100% EGs decisions (one would think) and what does the organization have to show for it?the oft maligned Dray Blatche and..Posted by: divi3"

I would think that 100% is wrong. I'm sure that he got input from others ( owner, coaches, scouts etc).
I've said it before...the draft is a crap shoot... from #1 to #60...no guarantees and no proven formula. Is Wall gonna be a star??? maybe...maybe not.
I hope so.

Posted by: VBFan | June 5, 2010 7:54 PM | Report abuse

Grunfeld has been ok as GM. But his offensive big 3 (Jamison, Butler/Hughes, Arenas) like his big 3 in Milwaukee with Glen Robinson, Vin Baker/Tim Thomas, Ray Allen, was a failure.

Pecherov was a bust. Nick Young is a bust. Veremeenko is a bust. McGee is a question mark. His only real successful pick was Blatche. He passed on guys such as Marc Gasol, Rondo, DeJuan Blair. He dealt the #5 pick last year for Miller/Foye.

I do like the move for Al Thornton. The Caron for Kwame deal was good. Losing Hughes to Cleveland wasn't. Giving big contracts to Arenas and Etan Thomas were bad moves. Again signing Blatche to a cheap longterm deal was good. Deshawn Stevenson. Roger Mason. Firing Eddie Jordan.

I don't know. Seems to me Ernie has had his chance.

I'd love to see them bring in Danny Ferry. He grew up here when his father was the Bullets GM. Kinda like Bruce Allen becoming GM of the Skins. I saw him at VC when the Cavs were here. Ferry I'm sure has fond memories of the Bullets growing up and appreciates the team's past. I think he'd be great for us. And I think just a chance in general would be good for us. We need more creativity at the top.

Posted by: Darnell1 | June 5, 2010 9:45 PM | Report abuse

I also would like getting Lawal with one of our later picks. That Center Paulao Prestes could be a steal late. I'd also like getting Vasquez and/or Zoubeck. Booker is another guy I like late in the draft.

Maybe this year we'll actually BUY a 2nd round pick or two, instead of SELLING them!!

Posted by: Darnell1 | June 5, 2010 9:52 PM | Report abuse

As far as Free Agents, David Lee would be at the top of my list!

Posted by: Darnell1 | June 5, 2010 9:57 PM | Report abuse

All you have to do is show that he's been much less successful than other GMs who were drafting in the same area he did during that period.

Go ahead...

Posted by: Samson151 | June 5, 2010 5:43 PM

Since when is "he didnt suck as bad as some other guys" been considered a successful tenure? Everyone seems to give him a pass on the Big3 as really being Abe's doings. So what's left? The Draft, and the best anybody can say is that he wasnt the worst.

In drafting Pech and Jarvis Hayes, he missed on the likes of Rondo, Shannon Brown, Jordan Farmar, Kyle Lowry, Mikail Petreus, and David West. Dray is the only guy really helping EG's resume (we'll see about JM/NY) and apparently Ernie tried to trade AB for a 5'11" pg at the deadline.

Let's not forget that Gil gun drama also happened on EGs watch. He has to take some accountability for the team being run so loosely it would happen, even if Arenas is obviously the main culprit.

If EG was fired tomorrow I dont think anyone outside of melodious would be surprised or upset.

Posted by: divi3 | June 5, 2010 10:44 PM | Report abuse

Ahhhhh...been gone a long time, since the Wiz are not doing anything for a few more weeks and the playoffs have mostly been BORING (with a fe good games in there.

Glawrence...give me your line up for next year.

I hope Wall pans out. I get nervous about number 1's after the whole Kwame affair. Obviously, we have a little more to base a decision on here, but lets remember, Wall was working with one of the most talented teams in recent memory, even if mostly they were freshmen and Soph's...yet they didn't get er done as they say down here.

Still, I don't see how you justify picking anyone else. So I hope for the best.

I still believe that McGee will be a real force as a center, just maybe not this year. After all, he will still only be what? 21?

Get the kid in the gym all summer and work on conditioning and weights...after a hard upper body workout, let him shoot for 45 minutes to an hour with noodle arms. and get those legs burning with tons of weights followed by interval training and a good long run on the upper body days.

With that, I say we need to get a good big man coach in and maybe sign a FA former allstar (Ben Wallace anybody) to a 1 or 2 year deal to show our kid how its done

Other than that, I love th talk about moving Gil to the 2 and hope we can talk Livingstone into staying.

I am 50/50 on Josh howard. If the deal is right, Its probably worth taking the chance on his recovery...Livingstone's comeback is proof of that.

So a starting lineup of Wall, Gil, ????, Blatche and McGee is not exactly going to win any championships, but could be enough to get us playoff bound.

Anyway...keep some powder dry and see what we can accomplish in FA season 2011.

Posted by: Blurred | June 5, 2010 11:16 PM | Report abuse

"Since when is "he didnt suck as bad as some other guys" been considered a successful tenure?"

Not what I'm saying. I'm saying that in order for you to maintain that EG has been a failure as a drafting GM, you have to prove it. And you don't do that by pointing out that he didn't pick Rajon Rondo or Shannon Brown, because a lot of other GMs (including those on very successful clubs), passed on those guys, too. Shannon Brown, for instance, was picked 25th by Cleveland, and didn't shine much until he was on his third team. So does that mean the 24 GMs who passed on him, and the two GMs who let him go, are idiots? That's what your statement implies.

I'm not a big EG fan. I'm just not a fan of arbitrary judgments without much foundation.

So go ahead, prove your point. If you can.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 5, 2010 11:21 PM | Report abuse

In drafting Pech and Jarvis Hayes, he missed on the likes of Rondo, Shannon Brown, Jordan Farmar, Kyle Lowry, Mikail Petreus, and David West.
Posted by: divi3

I think you should give him some slack on Hayes. He was hired less than a month before that draft. Pech before Rondo, not so great. But I don't know if throwing in Lowry, Farmar or Brown really help your case. All 3 are role players, and 2 of them play off of Kobe.

Posted by: ts35 | June 5, 2010 11:54 PM | Report abuse

"Let's not forget that Gil gun drama also happened on EGs watch. He has to take some accountability for the team being run so loosely it would happen, even if Arenas is obviously the main culprit."

Arenas is the only culprit (unless you count Crittenton). Realistically, there was no way Grunfeld could have anticipated or prevented what happened in that locker room.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 5, 2010 11:54 PM | Report abuse

"I think you should give him some slack on Hayes. He was hired less than a month before that draft. Pech before Rondo, not so great. But I don't know if throwing in Lowry, Farmar or Brown really help your case. All 3 are role players, and 2 of them play off of Kobe."

But they're role players who actually play and contribute, which is more than you say about Pech. Having a quick, penetrating PG coming off the bench might have been a nice plus during all of the Arenas injuries. (Hayes, however, was actually on track to be a solid, productive player before his injuries hit. Can't really pin that on Grunfeld.)

I've been saying for a while now that Grunfeld's draft record is probably his biggest weakness during his tenure with the Wiz. If he'd done a better job in the early years, filling out the roster with young developmental talent when the big 3 were still hot, the whole direction and current circumstances of the team might have been ended up very differently.

That being said, I've got no real problem with him being retained, because I'm convinced that the complicated interoffice politics going on between him, Pollin, and Jordan tangled the team's operations in a negative way. I'm willing to take wait and see attitude on how he does under the new regime.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 6, 2010 12:04 AM | Report abuse

"I'd love to see them bring in Danny Ferry. He grew up here when his father was the Bullets GM. Kinda like Bruce Allen becoming GM of the Skins. I saw him at VC when the Cavs were here. Ferry I'm sure has fond memories of the Bullets growing up and appreciates the team's past. I think he'd be great for us. And I think just a chance in general would be good for us. We need more creativity at the top. "

I wouldn't exactly call Ferry's tenure in Cleveland a exemplar of creativity. If free agency and trades are Grufeld's strong suits, they're apparently Ferry's weak ones, at least based on his tenure in Cleveland. He made questionable and outright bad acquisitions (Hughes, Wallace, Shaq, Szczerbiak) in a series of floundering attempts to build a contender around James and all he accomplished was to weigh LBJ down with more dead weight to carry.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 6, 2010 12:19 AM | Report abuse

"And you don't do that by pointing out that he didn't pick Rajon Rondo or Shannon Brown, because a lot of other GMs (including those on very successful clubs), passed on those guys, too. Shannon Brown, for instance, was picked 25th by Cleveland, and didn't shine much until he was on his third team. So does that mean the 24 GMs who passed on him, and the two GMs who let him go, are idiots?"

I look at the next 10 picks and when there are several contributing players and maybe an all-star or two there, that's a failure on the GMs part. Sure, maybe lots of other GMs have poor records as well, but being middling-at-best hardly makes any sort of positive case for a guy.

Not even saying EG should be fired so much as pointing out when you boil it all down, you're looking at Dray Blatche and nothing else on EGs balance sheet. Which should be enough to give Wizards fans pause when considering EG is going to be pulling the trigger at 30, 35, and maybe another. There are going to be productive players available and he'd better find one. An organizational turnaround cant happen with the bar being set at "well, other GMs passed on that guy too"

Posted by: divi3 | June 6, 2010 12:36 AM | Report abuse

You guys are on a roll, getting excited about how the Wizards take shape. Me too.

But I'll say this about Michael Beasley: Yes, he is a tremendous basketball talent and, yes, he is a troubled young man. Who will give him a chance? Washington COULD be the place where young Mr. Beasley gets his act together. Sure, it could be a pipedream.

But anyone who thinks Danny Ferry should be the Washington GM is clearly not paying attention. Ferry's entire Cleveland record is predicated on LeBron James, who called the marching orders. Get me Shaq. Get me Jamison. Fire Mike Brown. Yeah, and fire Danny Ferry.

We don't want Ferry, definitely, but I hope we're in the market for James.

Posted by: zinger1 | June 6, 2010 1:07 AM | Report abuse

WRT Ferry, does anyone around here remember the excitement that came out of his father's mouth when he drafted Hot Plate?

"HOT DAMMMNEDD!!!!"

Didn't work out so well...

Hiring Ferry ain't the same nostalgia as hiring Bruce Allen.

Posted by: DC_MAN88 | June 6, 2010 9:16 AM | Report abuse

"Arenas is the only culprit (unless you count Crittenton). Realistically, there was no way Grunfeld could have anticipated or prevented what happened in that locker room.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 5, 2010 11:54 PM | Report abuse "

And that's primarily because EG chose to turn a blind eye. The insane were running the asylum.

Gilby's series of unfortunate events leading up to gun debacle didn't happen overnight.

Moving forward, let's hope none of this nonsense happens again, but if it does, under Leonsis watch, he'll be faulted for giving someone another chance when they didn't deserve it.

Posted by: DC_MAN88 | June 6, 2010 9:20 AM | Report abuse

Problem with looking at who your team passed on in a given draft is that unless you're drafting last, you're almost always going to pass on somebody better than the guy you picked -- sometimes a bunch of them. Take '03, the year Ainge took over in Boston. The Celts, picking 16th, took Troy Bell of Boston College. Which meant they passed on David West, Boris Diaw, Travis Outlaw, Carlos Delfino, Leandro Barbosa, and Josh Howard.

Two seasons later Boston thought Gerald Green at 18 was a better pick than either Jarrett Jack or David Lee.

In '07 the Celts took Jeff Green at 5 and traded him to Seattle (suggesting he was Seattle's idea). Joakim Noah and Rodney Stuckey were available, as were Aaron Brooks and Jared Dudley. In the second round, both the Celts and Washington missed on Marc Gasol.

In '08 Boston took JR Giddens with the last pick of the first round, passing on Mario Chalmers. Looking for young talent, they traded with the Wiz for Bill Walker.

That's why they call it a crapshoot.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 6, 2010 10:05 AM | Report abuse

I've always felt that organizational influence has and do affect the individual choices and decisions of its members.

However, there are some here that would rather leave the responsibility of good membership all the whims of the member.

Thus and thereby, the organization shucks all responisibility to the bad and fated acts of the members.

The Wizard organization has operated mostly in such a manner and that is why they have failed so miserably.

I am sure that Mr. Ted Leonsis will put an end to this folly and hopefully those that think that the organization shares no blame in the lack of good and proper conduct of its members will also come to an end.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | June 6, 2010 10:12 AM | Report abuse

Ainge was also about to be fired before he colluded with Mchale to bring KG to boston.

And Jeff Green is a darn good player, I dont think anyone looks at him as a miss in the 5 spot.

Crapshoot yes, but using that logic no GM can be held accountable for bad picks. Right now AB is the only real-deal player EG has drafted for the organization.

Posted by: divi3 | June 6, 2010 10:36 AM | Report abuse

Or '08, when the reigning Boy Genius of the NBA, Seattle/OKC GM Sam Presti, thought he should use the first round pick he acquired from Phoenix on Serge Ibaka of Spain instead of Nick Batum or George Hill, who came immediately after.

One GM said that the draft exists to make otherwise intelligent people look like idiots.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 6, 2010 10:38 AM | Report abuse

The Wizzies odds of getting the #1 pick were slim.
The odds of getting an all star quality player are very good.
The higher in the draft that you pick the better the odds that you pick correctly...not a guarantee but better odds.
Most time the odds are with you and sometimes they ain't.
This years draft seems to be stocked with a lot of talent. Much better odds of looking like a genius for most GM's.

Posted by: VBFan | June 6, 2010 11:10 AM | Report abuse

I am sure that Mr. Ted Leonsis will put an end to this folly and hopefully those that think that the organization shares no blame in the lack of good and proper conduct of its members will also come to an end.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | June 6, 2010 10:12 AM

I meant the say that this view would come to an end and not the individuals. Sorry

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | June 6, 2010 11:23 AM | Report abuse

in '99, EG picked Frederic Weiss (France) at 15th...one spot ahead of Ron Artest.

Artest was at StJohn's! Horrendous whiff right there, he was in NYC for goodness sake

All I'm saying is there's really no track record for us to have faith EG will find some talent after the #1. Thankfully the #1 is what it's all about, but it would be nice to pick up another productive player in this draft

Posted by: divi3 | June 6, 2010 11:31 AM | Report abuse

The point I was making about taking a center, it is the one position of need worth acquiring an extra pick for. If the Wiz are unable to move up or grab an extra pick in the first rd, sure, you pick the best player available regardless of position at 30. You never force a pick.

But when a team moves up, or trades for a pick it needs to be done so with a purpose in mind. 15-20 seems to be the area of the draft that there are teams willing to deal out of the draft, and there are some centers slotted to be available. If the Wiz try and deal for another pick, I think a center needs to be on their radar.

Grunfeld's draft record. The Wiz had traded out of the first one year to get Haywood(that was Jordan's deal). They traded out one year to get Jamison. Hayes was a different player after the double knee cap injuries. To me Pecherov is the only first rounder that really ended up looking like a reach. But that year they wanted to stockpile the pick because of the number of contracts they had.

Young seemed to play solid ball late last season, he has struggled getting consistant minutes, and his play is still spotty. What came first, Chicken or the Egg? McGee is still just plain to early to tell, he was a developmental guy, and he's still got a ways to go, but he's just coming off his second year.

Young becomes a valuable scorer off the bench behind Arenas, McGee pans out to be a consistant contributor, and Blatche becomes an Allstar, Ernie looks like GM of the year.

Not saying any of those things are all happening, but too early to say they won't...
GM

Posted by: flohrtv | June 6, 2010 11:56 AM | Report abuse

LOL or Greg Popovich, the man who once swapped Dennis Rodman for Will Perdue, had to be talked into taking Tony Parker by his then-assistant Sam Presti. In '05, Pop decided Ian Mahinmi was a better investment of a first rounder than Dave Lee, Brandon Bass, Monta Ellis, Louis Williams, Ronny Turiaf, or Andray Blatche. In '06 he had no first rounder but still managed to snag the Croatian Micheal Jordan, Damir Markota, with the 58th selection.

I mean, Popovich is a great coach, but there's still room for improvement...

Posted by: Samson151 | June 6, 2010 12:17 PM | Report abuse

I have no objection to accountability for GMs. It's bogus standards I don't like...

Posted by: Samson151 | June 6, 2010 12:20 PM | Report abuse

What's bogus about expecting a GM to pick productive players over the years? Instead of pointing all the examples of other mistakes GMs have made, how about pointing out some of EGs good picks over the years? The case you're making for the guy is "Everyone makes mistakes"

Again, that's hardly a winning philosophy. The fact is Pops DID pick Tony Parker no matter how it came about. And while every GM has a laundry list of guys who dont pan out (nature of the business) someone like Pops also has a list of guys who do pan out.

Who's on EGs list?

Posted by: divi3 | June 6, 2010 12:31 PM | Report abuse

How about picking 3 PFs in the '96 draft only to have Jerome Williams go later and arguably have the best career of the 4? Not to mention BigZ being drafted in between 2 of your picks that year.

Seems like a loooong track record of misses in the draft not withstanding AB and Michale Redd

Posted by: divi3 | June 6, 2010 12:45 PM | Report abuse

I'm not big on Grunfled, but I'd say he's done a solid job with his drafts.

He's found role players and one max-contract type player (Redd) during his tenure as GM, even though he's rarely had high draft picks in his previous stops. Blatche may turn out to be another big-time player getting big bucks if he turns out the way most of think he will. It would've been interesting to see what he would have done with the two high first-rounders (5th picks each) he traded away.

His notable draft picks-

Wizards: Nick Young, JaVale McGee, Dominic McGuire, Andray Blatche

Bucks: Michael Redd, Dan Gadzuric, Ronald "Flip" Murray

Knicks: Charlie Ward

Posted by: artiesliver | June 6, 2010 1:06 PM | Report abuse

I've seen Lawal play many times over the years and the facts that he is a poor ball handler and weak at passing out of the post do not escape me. Additionally, he does not have a good jumpshot and struggles to make FTs. But, people get too caught-up on the offensive side of things (same reason so many here love Amare).

He does so many of the little things that can help a finesse team like the Wiz. He rebounds by establishing position and boxing-out rather than just trying to out jump guys. He sets hard screens, moves without the ball, and plays physical defense. He struggles to create for himself, but on this team that would be a blessing not a curse. He's the guy that will only score 6pts, but leave you feeling like he was all over the court or leave you scratching you head at the end of a game trying to recall how he had 16pts.

The best comparison I can make is to say Paul Milsap, only taller and much longer arms.
Posted by: SportzWiz

Millsap is a bit of a reach. I could buy a Leon Powe with healthy knees comparison. That kind of rookie is more valuable on a veteran club. On a rebuilding team, a guy like Singleton can fill that role and be a veteran voice in the locker room.

Posted by: djnnnou | June 6, 2010 1:16 PM | Report abuse

GM,

I agree with you in that if we do make a move in draft positioning, that it should be to solidyfy the Center position. If we cannot do it in the draft, I would not be adverse to resigning Haywood, though I know that won't fly here.

Landing the one pick and Wall makes our greatest need agreeably the center slot.

Reference Grunfield, my greatest criticism of him is not his draft selections. I agree kinda with the folks that you mostly get lucky. So I am not one to bemoan bad selections.

However, what gets my dander up about Ernie is his operational decisions or lack thereof.

You can't let Tapscott throw away a whole season. A huge operational blunder and not the ony one that goes against Grunfield. But sometimes operational decisions are not all of your choice.

So I worry less about whether Grunfield was a good GM or not. I rather anticipate what I hope is a new direction and focus under Ted Leonsis.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | June 6, 2010 1:18 PM | Report abuse

GM,

I agree with you in that if we do make a move in draft positioning, that it should be to solidyfy the Center position. If we cannot do it in the draft, I would not be adverse to resigning Haywood, though I know that won't fly here.

Landing the one pick and Wall makes our greatest need agreeably the center slot.

Reference Grunfield, my greatest criticism of him is not his draft selections. I agree kinda with the folks that you mostly get lucky. So I am not one to bemoan bad selections.

However, what gets my dander up about Ernie is his operational decisions or lack thereof.

You can't let Tapscott throw away a whole season. A huge operational blunder and not the ony one that goes against Grunfield. But sometimes operational decisions are not all of your choice.

So I worry less about whether Grunfield was a good GM or not. I rather anticipate what I hope is a new direction and focus under Ted Leonsis.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | June 6, 2010 1:22 PM | Report abuse

"*You can't let Tapscott throw away a whole season. A huge operational blunder and not the ony one that goes against Grunfield. But sometimes operational decisions are not all of your choice.*"
Posted by:LarryInClinton


This is another gray area for me, Larry.

I'm not so sure that he was Ernie's first choice. Randy Ayers, the logical pick to replace Jordan, was dealing with some health issues when Jordan was let go and thus they went with Taps. If memory serves me, Ayers had some type of neck surgery around that time and wasn't able to coach immediately. Secondly, Pollin had just picked up the option on Jordan's contract, only to fire him a dozen games in the season. There was no way they were going to hire a new coach at that point of the season.

Posted by: artiesliver | June 6, 2010 1:40 PM | Report abuse

"The Persecution of Gilbert Arenas"

Sorry if its already been posted. I havent read it yet but I heard its a pretty good article

http://reason.com/archives/2010/06/03/the-persecution-of-gilbert-are

Posted by: dlts2041 | June 6, 2010 3:08 PM | Report abuse

"How about picking 3 PFs in the '96 draft only to have Jerome Williams go later and arguably have the best career of the 4? Not to mention BigZ being drafted in between 2 of your picks that year."

Good lord, you're judging the Wiz GM by a draft pick in 1996? Cheeez, the lengths to which we must go... OK, that's the Iverson/ Kobe Bryant draft, supposedly one of the best in history. Grunfeld drafting for the Knicks. He picks combo forward John Wallace and PF Walter McCarty at 18 and 19. Big Z of Lithuania goes at 20. Jerome Williams of Georgetown is picked 26th by Detroit and goes on to average a glossy 6 points and 6 rebounds over his NBA career.

You know who Grunfeld missed on? Derek Fisher of Ark-Little Rock. The rest of the first round looks like this: Roy Rogers, Efthimios Rentzias, Martin Muursepp, Brian Evans, Priest Lauderdale, Travis Knight.

The greatness of that draft was in the first 17 picks (#17: Jermaine O'Neal). Guess Ernie should have traded up one spot, huh?

About drafting Ilgauskas, who went to Cleveland: The 96'97 Knicks did have a pretty good center named Ewing who had just been named 2nd team All-NBA. At PF, for that matter, they'd picked up one Larry Johnson from Charlotte. So maybe they weren't exactly drafting for need.
They did finish with 57 wins, you know. And went out in the second round to Miami.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 6, 2010 3:16 PM | Report abuse

from the article:

'Gilbert Arenas became a symbol of liberal fears about the spread of guns and conservative disgust with cosseted, anti-
social pro athletes who think they’re above the law.'

Understandable omission given he's writing for a rightwing magazine, but the sentence should read:

'Gilbert Arenas became a symbol of liberal fears about the spread of guns and conservative disgust with BLACK, cosseted, anti-
social pro athletes who think they’re above the law.'

If Gil was a countryboy baseball player from Texas, the NRA would have paid for his lawyers and tried to overturn whatever is left of DC's gun laws based on a perceived violation of his 2nd Amend rights.

Posted by: divi3 | June 6, 2010 3:24 PM | Report abuse

I'm still waiting for you to point out EGs draft successes rather than making excuses for his misses.

Posted by: divi3 | June 6, 2010 3:26 PM | Report abuse

"And while every GM has a laundry list of guys who dont pan out (nature of the business) someone like Pops also has a list of guys who do pan out."

Yeah, principally David Robinson and Tim Duncan. Those were exceptionally good choices on Pop's part. I mean, I suppose he could have taken Armon Gilliam or Keith Van Horn. I was particularly impressed by San Antonio's decision to finish last in the year Duncan came out, instead of waiting til the following year, when Mike Olowokandi and Raef LaFrentz were the best big men available. To me, that shows planning.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 6, 2010 3:29 PM | Report abuse

Excuses? Who has to make excuses for Grunfeld? If I recall correctly, you insisted Ernie Grunfeld was substantially below average when it came to drafting -- should be fired for his failures. Seems to me the arguments you've made so far are a long way from proving that point.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 6, 2010 3:33 PM | Report abuse

By the way, you know what a winning philosophy? It's whatever someone puts in the book they write after they win a title. That's when everyone insists that all the mistakes they made on the way were just important steps in the climb to greatness.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 6, 2010 3:36 PM | Report abuse

no, i said no one would be surprised nor upset if he was fired (except melodious) and that EGs draft history should give wizards fans pause as to whether he will find a productive player at 30 and 35.

still waiting on EGs quality picks that show his acumen in the draft.

Posted by: divi3 | June 6, 2010 3:37 PM | Report abuse

drafting productive role players is a must-have talent in a GM. Who are the Wizards productive role players that EG drafted?

personally, I'm hoping JM and NY both pan out and EG looks like a genius. But right now, zards have gotten bupkus through the draft other than AB during EG tenure

Posted by: divi3 | June 6, 2010 3:41 PM | Report abuse

Here's what you said: "The drafts have been 100% EGs decisions (one would think) and what does the organization have to show for it?the oft maligned Dray Blatche and..Posted by: divi3"

Here's what I said in reply: "The draft you can definitely hold him accountable for. All you have to do is show that he's been much less successful than other GMs who were drafting in the same area he did during that period...Posted by: Samson151"

But instead, you editorialized: "Since when is he didnt suck as bad as some other guys been considered a successful tenure? Everyone seems to give him a pass on the Big3 as really being Abe's doings. So what's left? The Draft, and the best anybody can say is that he wasnt the worst."

Editorializing is not proving. So you went on to list Rondo, Shannon Brown and some other guys that the Wiz didn't select in the draft. I pointed out the flaw in this argument, which is that a whole bunch of GMs, including some very respected ones, missed on those same players. You then digressed about the Arenas incident happening on Grunfeld's watch.

Basically, I've just been making fun since then. Here's my point in a nutshell: Grunfeld has a mixed record on draft picks, like most GMs, good and bad. To determine where he ranks among his peers, however, you have to establish some sort of objective standard for people drafting during those same years in about the same position the Washington did. You can't just cherry-pick examples and insist they mean something that they don't.

Anyway, have to go for a while.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 6, 2010 4:17 PM | Report abuse

"Gilby's series of unfortunate events leading up to gun debacle didn't happen overnight.

Moving forward, let's hope none of this nonsense happens again, but if it does, under Leonsis watch, he'll be faulted for giving someone another chance when they didn't deserve it."

There was nothing in anything Arenas did previously that served as some kind of waning sign of the gun thing. That was a completely different scale than dumb locker room practical jokes or a player not being in sync with the coach. Those things happen in pro sports locker rooms all the time. To the best of my recollection, none of the previous examples of them have inevitably led to gun charges. Arenas is a grown man responsible for his own bad decisions. TO hang any of that on Grunfeld is letting Arenas off the hook.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 6, 2010 4:41 PM | Report abuse

To those of you blaming Grunfeld for the Arenas gun indident:

Would it be your fault if someone you supervised brought a gun to work? Would you immediately resign or, if fired, go off quietly into the night without protest since it happened "on your watch"? This blog is full of hypocrites.

Even his dad said this in on Gilbert. Stop giving wriggle to room to Arenas for a bad decision HE made.

Posted by: gimmedat | June 6, 2010 5:01 PM | Report abuse

All you have to do is show that he's been much less successful than other GMs who were drafting in the same area he did during that period...Posted by: Samson151"

With that standard those other GMs would be considered equal to Grunfeld. A more successful GM or less successful one wouldn't be drafting in the same area for long.

Posted by: djnnnou | June 6, 2010 5:27 PM | Report abuse

No one is giving Arenas a pass. Just saying there is further accountability. High stakes card games going on in the back of the plane that eventually escalate into the situation....that sort of thing will happen on some teams yet not others based solely on who's in charge. Unless of course you think Jerry Sloan would allow Gil the kind of leeway he enjoyed here.

Does that excuse Arenas at all? NO.

But it makes the case that others run tighter ships, and a guy with the title "President of Basketball Operations" would seem to be accountable for that on some level.

Posted by: divi3 | June 6, 2010 5:30 PM | Report abuse

imho, you look at the GMs results over time without regard to exactly which other GMs are consistently drafting in the same area.

When you pick a dud and several of the next 10 or so players end up as legit pros- you done blew it. It happens, but you should have your share of hits over the years too or you are consistently choosing the wrong guy from a group of comparably ranked players.

Posted by: divi3 | June 6, 2010 5:55 PM | Report abuse

divi3,

Would you believe that that arguments (and even fights) over gambling occur league-wide but we never hear about it? Would you believe that we would have never heard about this gambling argument were it not for the guns? Let's not pretend that the Wizards were alone in allowing (at that time) players to gamble on a team flight.

Jerry Sloan and the GM of the Jazz have very different roles and amounts of contact with the players. I do believe Jerry Sloan runs a tighter ship in the locker room and on the court, but then again, Grunfeld's not the coach of the Wizards, is he?

The Arenas incident is on Arenas solely.

Grunfeld was not fired, was not disciplined, was not demoted and is still running the operation. Can you read between the lines?

Posted by: gimmedat | June 6, 2010 5:59 PM | Report abuse

"imho, you look at the GMs results over time without regard to exactly which other GMs are consistently drafting in the same area.When you pick a dud and several of the next 10 or so players end up as legit pros- you done blew it."Posted by: divi3

LOL OK I'll say it once more: if that's your standard, then use it. Compare Grunfeld with other GMs who picked in the same general area of the draft over the same general period and show where he ranks in that same group.

It's not your opinion of Grunfeld I'm disagreeing with -- it's just your opinion and your entitled to it. It's your methodology.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 6, 2010 6:20 PM | Report abuse

"With that standard those other GMs would be considered equal to Grunfeld. A more successful GM or less successful one wouldn't be drafting in the same area for long.Posted by: djnnnou"

I'm not talking about comparing him to the same GMs year after year, but to GMs who were drafting in the same area of the draft. Say Grunfeld drafted 15th one year, 20th the next, 8th the following year, 3rd the next... how'd he do in comparison to the GMs around him? For instance, if he drafts at 18, in relation to picks 19, 20, and 21.

You'd have to allow for picks traded away, of course.

Drafting is one important aspect of a GM's job description. A given draft is like an exam in a required course. Every year you face different challenges, depending on factors like where you pick, the number of picks you have, team needs, and the quality of players available. Say you have a really strong class like '96 -- most GMs who picked before #18 got a really good player (but not all). But after that, the number of real value players dropped precipitously. That would affect your grade, of course.

Other parts of a GM grade would be trades, free agent signings, contract management...

Posted by: Samson151 | June 6, 2010 6:34 PM | Report abuse

Grunfeld was not fired, was not disciplined, was not demoted and is still running the operation. Can you read between the lines?

Posted by: gimmedat | June 6, 2010 5:59 PM

Remember when AB called Flip a bald-faced liar in public then defiantly said he wouldnt be suspended or disciplined? He started that night.

So I guess that means the incident was Flip's fault right?

EG still being in place after the gun flap doesnt mean EG bears no responsibility for the culture of the team he created. And I have yet to say he should be fired. I'm saying that as he should be credited with whatever success the team had, he should take heat for the dysfunctional mess the group he assembled turned out to be.

Posted by: divi3 | June 6, 2010 6:51 PM | Report abuse

Remember when AB called Flip a bald-faced liar in public then defiantly said he wouldnt be suspended or disciplined? He started that night. So I guess that means the incident was Flip's fault right?
posted by: divi3


Yes, it was. I like how you state he "defiantly" said he would not be disciplined. Maybe he "justly" or "reasonably" stated he would not be disciplined.

I maintain that Flip and Andray had a disagreement that night and Flip failed to talk directly to Blatche after the disagreement. Flip cowardly tried to communicate through his assistants and the lines of communication got crossed. Flip showed himself on more than one occasion this season to be the King of Hyperbole. I'm going with Blatche on this one.

Grunfeld has been vindicated in my view. Reasonable minds may disagree.

Posted by: gimmedat | June 6, 2010 7:06 PM | Report abuse

EG still being in place after the gun flap doesnt mean EG bears no responsibility for the culture of the team he created.
posted by: divi3

What "culture" was that? Was gunplay the norm throughout the team? Did Flip and Ernie run a mom and pop gun store from which players openly and giddily bought, traded and stole the weapons of their choice? What "culture", exactly, did the Arenas gun incident expose?

Posted by: gimmedat | June 6, 2010 7:13 PM | Report abuse

the one where Gil had free reign to do whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted, without any repercussions because he had been anointed The Man. By all accounts Gil was accountable to no one in the organization. Not uncommon in the nba for a player who has proven himself a franchise, but Arenas was far, far from that level.

Posted by: divi3 | June 6, 2010 7:39 PM | Report abuse

Grunfeld was not fired, was not disciplined, was not demoted and is still running the operation. Can you read between the lines?

Posted by: gimmedat | June 6, 2010 5:59 PM

Welcome to the world of the NBA where most contracts are guaranteed. EG is under contract and is benefiting from a tumulutuous transition period to keep his job. Ted has already lost alot of money running the caps and is in the midst of financial unsecurity following this big acquisition so paying a GM not to be here isn't a priority especially considering that the team isn't going anywhere for another 3-4 years anyways.

Posted by: Utilityman1 | June 6, 2010 8:04 PM | Report abuse

What "culture" was that? Was gunplay the norm throughout the team? Did Flip and Ernie run a mom and pop gun store from which players openly and giddily bought, traded and stole the weapons of their choice? What "culture", exactly, did the Arenas gun incident expose?

Posted by: gimmedat | June 6, 2010 7:13 PM | Report abuse

It's the culture of being an "enabler". He doesn't have to own a gun shop but he pretty much allowed Arenas to run this franchise and set his own rules and that's directly a consequence of EG's turning the blind eye. He sided with him when Jordan tried to instill some type of discipline and never held him accountable for his childish actions.
And the worst part about it is that Arenas isn't even a superstar (not that it would be ok if he were) to allow him to act like that.

Posted by: Utilityman1 | June 6, 2010 8:09 PM | Report abuse

We can sit here and debate Grunfeld's moves for days. We can talk about his great and bad moves, we can talk about his drafting prowesses (in this case lack thereof) but the fact of the matter is that in business (and if you didn't know it, the NBA qualifies as such), great performance is what matters primarily. No matter how you look at it, Grunfeld has failed (no pun) the past 2 years both on and off the court and as the GM, he should be held accountable. I have nothing against the man and I believe he's brought some positivity to an otherwise moribound franchise when he first got here (the same can be said about Eddie Jordan). But just like Jordan's time ran out, so did EG's.

Posted by: Utilityman1 | June 6, 2010 8:14 PM | Report abuse

"the one where Gil had free reign to do whatever he wanted...."

"By all accounts...."


LMAO.

I haven't read a single account where it said Arenas brought guns into the locker room whenever he wanted and that officials looked the other way each and every time. In fact I haven't read an article indicating that he brought guns on any other occasion. I'm starting to believe you're trying to take Flip's "King of Hyperbole" title. You're close.

There's "The Man" on every team in every sport. Think MJ, Ewing, Barkley, Bird and Malone were held to the exact same standard as their respective supporting casts? Think again.


Posted by: gimmedat | June 6, 2010 8:15 PM | Report abuse

Utilityman1,

Guaranteed contract or not, he still could have been reprimanded or fined, correct? There's nothing in his contract to prevent that, so that's just more weak sauce from you. Further, if Ted thought Grunfeld were THE problem, he'd be gone. Period.

NOTHING happened to him after this incident. Not a single thing. As I suggested to divi3, read between the lines.

Posted by: gimmedat | June 6, 2010 8:23 PM | Report abuse

Utility,

Grunfeld's time ran out? When? I thought he was still GM of the Wizards. Did Ted give him the axe?

His time isn't "up" until the man says it is.

Posted by: gimmedat | June 6, 2010 8:29 PM | Report abuse

"I haven't read a single account where it said Arenas brought guns into the locker room whenever he wanted and that officials looked the other way each and every time."

And you are talking about hyperbole? No one ever suggested what you just wrote.

But EG is responsible for a team culture where Gil truy believed bringing those guns in and pulling that "joke" wasnt too big a deal. And something he could get away with in front of other players and team employees. Can you not see how absurd that is? Ego, immaturity, and general idiocy allowed to run roughshod over a franchise for a guy who'd won a single playoff series in his career. That's the situation EG created and we saw the results.

Posted by: divi3 | June 6, 2010 8:42 PM | Report abuse

"But EG is responsible for a team culture where Gil truy believed bringing those guns in and pulling that "joke" wasnt too big a deal."

A "team culture"? Did several members of the team do this? Gil did it because he thought he wouldn't get caught. You're broad-brushing the "team" for the action of Arenas. Or was Crit "The Man" too?


"Ego, immaturity, and general idiocy allowed to run roughshod over a franchise for a guy who'd won a single playoff series in his career."

I'll overlook the last part of your sentence about his not winning a single playoff series. Did Arenas go to Vegas while the team went through a grueling training camp or something? There's no proof for your assertion that he was allowed to run roughshod over the team. None.

EG created no team culture of enablement.

Posted by: gimmedat | June 6, 2010 9:00 PM | Report abuse

"I'll overlook the last part of your sentence about his not winning a single playoff series."

I said he won a single playoff series.

Posted by: divi3 | June 6, 2010 9:12 PM | Report abuse

We're in agreement.

Posted by: gimmedat | June 6, 2010 9:25 PM | Report abuse

Ted has already lost alot of money running the caps and is in the midst of financial unsecurity following this big acquisition so paying a GM not to be here isn't a priority especially considering that the team isn't going anywhere for another 3-4 years anyways.

Posted by: Utilityman1 | June 6, 2010 8:04 PM | Report abuse

Those "losses" that you refer to are paper losses that Ted and his Caps co-owners have incurred largely because of their rental payments for the Verizon Center, which they owned 40-something percent of. In other words, they were, to a substantial extent, taking money out of one pocket and putting it in another. Despite their substantial outlay of cash to close the deal on the Wizards and the other properties they bought, I doubt if they are hurting financially to the extent that they are keeping Grunfeld for financial reasons. Rather, I suspect that Leonsis knows that Grunfeld's moves to keep the "big three" together for as long as he did was done at the behest of Pollin in a misguided attempt to make one last playoff run before Pollin shuffled off of this mortal coil.

Posted by: rbpalmer | June 6, 2010 9:25 PM | Report abuse

"No matter how you look at it, Grunfeld has failed (no pun) the past 2 years both on and off the court..."posted by utilityman

LOL I think the evidence of this blog is that some people look at it very differently. What you're doing is stating a partisan position rather than a consensus.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 7, 2010 6:53 AM | Report abuse

Remarkable game in LA last night. Ray Allen was on fire. In some ways the Lakers are a better on the road than at home. Makes me wonder why that would be.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 7, 2010 6:57 AM | Report abuse

Referecing Ray Allen, It tickled the hell out of me that it was reported this year that he was trade bait by the Celtics.

Don't know whether that came from the Celtics or the media, but what I do know is that Ray Allen is still an excellent ball player and he is an integral piece on that team.

The Celtics without Ray Allen would not be the Celtics as we know them now.

Trade Ray Allen. A hugh joke. LOL.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | June 7, 2010 8:28 AM | Report abuse

Sorry I mean the Celts were better on the road than at home.

Interesting as the game was, I still can't get worked up much about this series. I'm sure the NBA hopes that it goes seven, and it might. But Boston is hacking away inside the way they did against Orlando, and LA is spending most of its time at the free throw line, and that's just not very exciting basketball. Rondo gets a triple double and somehow you hardly notice.

Hate to admit it, but I'd rather have watched Phoenix-Orlando. Now that would have been an interesting series.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 7, 2010 8:29 AM | Report abuse

LOL I think the evidence of this blog is that some people look at it very differently. What you're doing is stating a partisan position rather than a consensus.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 7, 2010 6:53 AM | Report abuse
...........................................

Ok, how about just stating the facts.

*Ernie Grunfeld was fired as GM of the Bucks.
*Ernie Grunfeld was fired as GM of the Knicks.
*Ernie Grunfeld dismantled the team that HE created because it FAILED, the last two seasons landing the team lottery-picks.

Dan Gilbert, a GM with have a far superior record to Ernie Grunfeld had to resign having accomplished much more.

Quite frankly it's a miracle that Ernie Grunfeld will somehow be able to continue being a General Manager in the NBA, he would have been fired for the 3rd time were it any other organization.

Posted by: closg | June 7, 2010 9:53 AM | Report abuse

closg

Dan Gilbert OWNS the team. I don't think he's going to be forced to resign anytime soon.

Danny Ferry, on the other hand, accomplished nothing given the fact that he has had LeBron James at his disposal. Ferry is the same man who signed oft-injured Larry Hughes to a huge contract only to see him ruin the team's chemistry with his cries of "Where do I fit in on this team?? Waaah, Waaaah, Waaaah!!".

Ferry should have been fired last year.

Posted by: Firuz1 | June 7, 2010 10:15 AM | Report abuse

In regards to Grunfeld, he's certainly not the best GM in the league, but he's also certainly not the worst. He's also years ahead of Unseld. Who knows how enticing the Wizards may become in the near future with cap sapce, John Wall, and Leonsis owning the team, but previous, they were not the big destination for free agents or GMs, Michael Jordan aside.

While I'm not sure Grunfeld can build a championship team, one thing I'm fairly certain of is that he knows how to make something out of nothing. He seems willing to take more risks at that point. In three consecutive years, he brought over Arenas, Jamison, and Butler. Was smart enough not to resign Hughes for that insane amount, and drafted Blatche in the second round.

After all that, when the team started to really look promising, he began to play it safe. And there's no question that his first round draft record with the team hasn't been great. Though at the time, other 'experts' and teams also would've chosen Young and McGee at those spots. Where he really missed was Pecherov, when even a lot of us on the message board where saying pick Rondo – but even then we were thinking that Rondo would be a great consistent backup to Arenas, who could also play in spurts alongside him. No one projected him to be this good.

IMO, where Grunfeld has mostly failed, is giving up on any young second round players the last few years because of cash reasons, and holding onto a core that was obviously not going anywhere. For all we know, however, that was at the owner's bidding. Remember, it's the GM's job to provide what the owner wants, not us fans.

Anyhow, the next 2 seasons are going to be exciting, as no one can accurately project where this team will be. I wouldn't be surprised if we make some sort of noise this summer, just not in the expected manner. We have trade assets, we have cap space galore, and we need players.

Posted by: segastyle | June 7, 2010 10:21 AM | Report abuse

"In regards to Grunfeld, he's certainly not the best GM in the league, but he's also certainly not the worst."

Damning with faint praise?

EG is responsible for the pile-of-dung team we've endured the past few seasons. Too many excuses seem to get thrown his way, which I dont understand given he's in charge.

by the exact same token:

When JM develops as much as AB has, and we have a young, 7foot frontcourt that is BALLIN with the addition of John Wall.....EG can take all the credit

Posted by: divi3 | June 7, 2010 10:32 AM | Report abuse

"Ok, how about just stating the facts.
*Ernie Grunfeld was fired as GM of the Bucks. *Ernie Grunfeld was fired as GM of the Knicks. *Ernie Grunfeld dismantled the team that HE created because it FAILED, the last two seasons landing the team lottery-picks. Dan Gilbert, a GM with have a far superior record to Ernie Grunfeld had to resign having accomplished much more. Quite frankly it's a miracle that Ernie Grunfeld will somehow be able to continue being a General Manager in the NBA, he would have been fired for the 3rd time were it any other organization. Posted by: closg"

OK, I think the problem is you're not clear on the difference between a fact and an opinion. For example, "Ernie Grunfeld was fired as GM of the Knicks" would be a fact. "Dan Gilbert... had to resign having accomplished much more" is an opinion -- and one that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, given that Dan Gilbert is the owner of the Cleveland Cavs, not the GM.

Heck, even your first 'fact' is debatable. Grunfeld was 'relieved of duties' as GM during the 98-99 season, when the club was .500. But then Knicks' ownership supposedly relented after the team made the playoffs anyway. By then, Grunfeld was ticked enough to take the open Milwaukee job. He did last 4 seasons there and I understand got more playoff wins than the Bucks had in the prior 12 years.

In the NBA, of course, that can still get you fired.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 7, 2010 10:33 AM | Report abuse

""In regards to Grunfeld, he's certainly not the best GM in the league, but he's also certainly not the worst."
Damning with faint praise? posted by divi3"

Nope, he's just stating a defensible opinion. By definition, there has to be a 'best' GM in the league, and there has to be a 'worst'. He's remarking that in his opinion, Grunfeld is neither. Same could be said of Danny Ferry, fired the other day.

It's an interesting question: who are the 'best' and 'worst' GMs currently in the NBA? Wonder how many folks list Kupchak and Ainge as the best, and the GM of the Net as the worst. That would be predictable.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 7, 2010 10:41 AM | Report abuse

When you reach the point that the best you can say about a player/coach/GM is "he's not the worst"....you're making his detractors arguments for them.

Posted by: divi3 | June 7, 2010 10:46 AM | Report abuse

Wish there was a way both these team could lose. Just as I'm happy to see Laker bandwagon fans eating poop as the Cs bust off a run....I catch a glimpse of Pierce's cocky face or KGs scowl and instantly want Boston to lose.

Posted by: divi3 | June 7, 2010 10:55 AM | Report abuse

"When you reach the point that the best you can say about a player/coach/GM is "he's not the worst"....you're making his detractors arguments for them.Posted by: divi3"

Um, that would be your opinion. As such, it's worth.. well, what everybody else's opinion is worth.

Math says you've got 28 GMs in the league who aren't the best OR the worst. And plenty of argument about who is.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 7, 2010 11:14 AM | Report abuse

Interesting that Ainge was considered one of the worst GMs until he got Garnett and Allen.

Posted by: Firuz1 | June 7, 2010 11:35 AM | Report abuse

And Kupchak was rumored to be in trouble until he got Phil Jackson to return to the Lakers.

Posted by: Firuz1 | June 7, 2010 11:37 AM | Report abuse

OK, I think the problem is you're not clear on the difference between a fact and an opinion. For example, "Ernie Grunfeld was fired as GM of the Knicks" would be a fact. "Dan Gilbert... had to resign having accomplished much more" is an opinion -- and one that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, given that Dan Gilbert is the owner of the Cleveland Cavs, not the GM.

Heck, even your first 'fact' is debatable. Grunfeld was 'relieved of duties' as GM during the 98-99 season, when the club was .500. But then Knicks' ownership supposedly relented after the team made the playoffs anyway. By then, Grunfeld was ticked enough to take the open Milwaukee job. He did last 4 seasons there and I understand got more playoff wins than the Bucks had in the prior 12 years.

In the NBA, of course, that can still get you fired.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 7, 2010 10:33 AM
................................................

Don't play cute with semantics Sam, Ernie was fired by the Knicks as he was later by the Bucks. Fired.

Excuuuuuse me, I meant Dan Ferry achieved more than Ernie Grunfeld and had to resign, but you knew that.

Posted by: closg | June 7, 2010 11:38 AM | Report abuse

"No one is giving Arenas a pass. Just saying there is further accountability. High stakes card games going on in the back of the plane that eventually escalate into the situation....that sort of thing will happen on some teams yet not others based solely on who's in charge. Unless of course you think Jerry Sloan would allow Gil the kind of leeway he enjoyed here."

What does Jerry Sloan have to do with anything? Nothing (esp. since you're talking about accountability from Grunfeld as GM and Sloan is a coach.)

The fact is that players gamble all the time on (including on league/team property): on the plane, in practice (by betting on shooting contests and HORSE games), on pool and bowling matches during days off on the road. It's a common part of the culture and has been for decades (Jordan used to clean up on his teammates, until they stopped playing him because he was so crazy competitive). Hell, sometimes coaches (who are ex-players) participate in the shooting contests. How many times have those betting matches escalated into guns being brought into the locker room? Once (that we know of). So the suggestion that there is some kind of inevitable through line from a commonplace activity (card games on the plane) to players bringing guns into the locker room flies directly in the face of decades of precedent.

There's no question that Grunfeld's handling of certain circumstances lead to chemistry and discipline issue in basketball related issues (the contentious relationship between he and Eddie Jordan certainly contributed to undermining the latter's authority with the players), but that's a completely different circumstance than a guy being so divorced from common sense that he thought bringing guns to thw workplace was a funny joke. That kind of think Arenas brought with him when he walked through the door.

"*Ernie Grunfeld was fired as GM of the Bucks.
*Ernie Grunfeld was fired as GM of the Knicks.
*Ernie Grunfeld dismantled the team that HE created because it FAILED, the last two seasons landing the team lottery-picks.

So? Almost every coach and GM in pro sports is going to get fired at some point if he's in the business long enough. That's simply the nature of the business. Just because someone gets fired doesn't mean they're incompetent forevermore. It simply means that they came up short in that particular situation. And sometimes, it doesn't even mean that.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 7, 2010 11:48 AM | Report abuse

no, i said no one would be surprised nor upset if he was fired (except melodious) and that EGs draft history should give wizards fans pause as to whether he will find a productive player at 30 and 35.

still waiting on EGs quality picks that show his acumen in the draft.

Posted by: divi3

If the concern is finding productive players at 30 and 35, then I think there is ample evidence that we're better off with EG than most. I haven't done a breakdown of every GM's second round picks, but it seems like EG has been able to find his share of productive players late, including your boy AB.

EG's 2nd rounders with the Wiz
2004 - Peter John Ramos - (failed to adhere to the rule not to trust someone with three names)
2005 - Andray Blatche - NBA starter
2006 - Veermenko - still in Europe
2007 - Dom McGuire - productive role player
2008 - trade
2009 - trade

I don't know how to categorize the two trade years. Yes, there were productive players available, but since those trades were for cash, hard to say for sure if that's purely an EG decision.

So out of 6 second round picks, we have 2 questions marks with trades, 1 NBA starter and one productive role player. The down picks are PJR and Veermenko. But since some on this board, and I believe you were one of them, argued just last week that the draft at that point is a crapshoot and the Wiz should reach with one of their late picks for some size, I find it tough for you to criticize EG for doing that with PJR and Veer.

Picking in the first round is different obviously, but it's not unreasonable to extend the same logic to the Pech pick. Yes, I wanted Rondo, but he wasn't a slam-dunk pick either. The Wiz needed more size, so they reached for Pech, causing Chad Ford to write the following sentence (which I'm sure he now regrets)

"I like this pick for the Wizards. With another year or two in Europe, he would've been a potential lottery pick."

Posted by: ts35 | June 7, 2010 12:00 PM | Report abuse

Interesting that Ainge was considered one of the worst GMs until he got Garnett and Allen."

And Dumars was considered one of the best, until the Iverson debacle; now fans in Detroit are screaming for his ouster.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 7, 2010 12:07 PM | Report abuse


Just to clear something up. I kept wondering about the '03 draft and Jarvis Hayes, because I always thought of that as an MJ pick. I can't remember the timeline exactly, but under EGs transactions on HoopsHype, they have him making the Bucks draft picks that year, so TJ Ford at 8 instead of Hayes at 10, with Szymon Szewczyk (who?) and Keith Bogans in the second. And then being released from his Bucks contract officially after the draft. More research pending.


For reference, Other EG 2nd rders / late first rounders - judge for yourself....

Bucks
2002 - Dan Gadzuric (34th) - prod role player / Flip Murray (42nd) prod role player, some time starter / Chris Owens (48th) no NBA career
2001 - Andre Hudson (52nd overall) no NBA career
2000 - Michael Redd (43rd) starter, all-star / Jason Hart (49th) role player (not sure how productive but he's still in the league)

1999 - Not employed - hired by Bucks in August. According to his wiki, he was fired during the season, so not sure if he's reponsible for the Weis pick or not.

NY Knicks
1998 - DeMarco Johnson (38) - waived after half a season / Sean Marks (44) - semi-productive back up big man
1997 - John Thomas (25) not productive, but 10 year career
1996 - 3 first rounders - none after 21
1995 - no picks
1994 - Monty Williams (24) (not that productive, but 10 year career) / Charlie Ward (26) prod starter / role player

So if the question is whether he is qualified to find productive talent late in the first / early in the second, I think there is sufficient evidence to say that he is. I worry a lot more about his middle of the first round picks. If we get one of those, we can re-open that debate.

Posted by: ts35 | June 7, 2010 12:11 PM | Report abuse

I didn't know much about Grunfeld's pre-Wiz career but I just checked and it's actually pretty impressive. With the Knicks, he went to the Conference Semis or farther each season, had five seasons of 50+ wins, 3 Division titles, and 2 NBA Finals. rips to the NBA Finals (in 1994 and 1999). Record over 8 years as GM or VP of player personnel: 397–227 (.636), 61–44 record in the playoffs.

With the Bucks he finished 177–151 (.540), never below .500 in any season, and made 3 playoffs in four years.

I don't know what Leonsis will do. If he decided to go in a different direction, who could blame him? Fresh start and all. If he sticks with EG for another year, that's justifiable too.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 7, 2010 12:21 PM | Report abuse

""I like this pick for the Wizards. With another year or two in Europe, he would've been a potential lottery pick."Posted by: ts35"

LOL Ford probably meant the Powerball.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 7, 2010 12:25 PM | Report abuse

"Don't play cute with semantics Sam, Ernie was fired by the Knicks as he was later by the Bucks. Fired.Excuuuuuse me, I meant Dan Ferry achieved more than Ernie Grunfeld and had to resign, but you knew that.Posted by: closg"

Actually, I was pointing out a possible error of fact, not semantics. You said the Knicks fired him; apparently not everyone agrees with that.

I may have known you meant Danny Ferry; I'm not sure you did.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 7, 2010 12:31 PM | Report abuse

I don't know what Leonsis will do. If he decided to go in a different direction, who could blame him? Fresh start and all. If he sticks with EG for another year, that's justifiable too.

Posted by: Samson151

Given potential money issues, precedent with the Caps (if that means anything) I think he sticks with Flip and EG for at least one more year. Plus, given that he's been part owner of the team all along, I would hope he's familiar enough with EG that he would know coming in whether he stays or goes.

Posted by: ts35 | June 7, 2010 12:32 PM | Report abuse

By the way, anybody else think it's odd you can have a 63.6% win percentage overall and 59% in the playoffs and still get relieved of your duties if your team is at .500 42 games into the season?

That's big-time professional sports, I guess.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 7, 2010 12:35 PM | Report abuse

"Plus, given that he's been part owner of the team all along, I would hope he's familiar enough with EG that he would know coming in whether he stays or goes."

That's something that I don't think people are factoring in. Leonisis isn't some guy walking in off the streets. He's been a part of the organization for years and knows what's been going on away from the public eye.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 7, 2010 12:36 PM | Report abuse

Closg, what's the difference between 'had to resign' and 'fired' anyway?

Also, EG was fired by the Knicks....who really haven't been consistently good since, and they also hired Isaiah. Not sure being fired by the Knicks says anything about EG in particular.

Posted by: ts35 | June 7, 2010 12:37 PM | Report abuse

Some of you guys are certifiably schizophrenic!

Those of you complaining the loudest and most vehemently about Ernest are the same ones who howled that Abe Pollin (RIP) was perhaps the worst and most meddlesome owner in all of sports (although you allowed that he was a benevolent philanthropist), yet now you conveniently pretend that Ernest was calling all the shots and was in complete control of the organization. Folly!

At any rate, Ernest is now working for an owner who will let him create a winner that will be of championship quality. All we as fans have to do is sit back, observe Ernest's brilliance and reap the benefits of doing so.

Ernest is creating a masterpiece, bar by bar, while the rest of the league is just sampling from Top 40 hits. No contest! You tin-ear haters out there don't deserve his hard work and the fruits of his labor, but he'll continue about his single-minded mission just the same.

In Grunfeld We Trust!!

Posted by: melodious_thunk | June 7, 2010 12:53 PM | Report abuse

More random noise on EG getting fired in NYC

http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2009/05/former_knick_allan_houston_sti.html

"Defensively, the Knicks were great. Offensively, like most teams of the time, they were unwatchable. For a team that averaged 86 points per game, general manager Ernie Grunfeld was encouraging Van Gundy to use Sprewell more -- and use Camby, period -- to add to the team's speed.

With reports circulating that Van Gundy was not going to be around very long, Ewing went to team president Dave Checketts to back his coach. Checketts, determined to stop the bickering, fired Grunfeld instead, with nine games left in the season.

"It had been a tumultuous year," Van Gundy said. "All that stuff was unfortunate. ... A lot of things happened that hurt people. It was a tough period."

He didn't know the half of it.

Distrust and paranoia were rampant. As early as the summer of 1998 -- without Grunfeld's knowledge -- Checketts dispatched legendary former Knicks coach Red Holzman to ask Phil Jackson about coaching in New York, because Checketts didn't care for the Van Gundy-Grunfeld partnership.

The image-conscious Checketts, who never thought of Van Gundy as anything but an interim coach, knew the tension between Grunfeld and Van Gundy dated back to the Al Bianchi regime. Both had been assistants under Stu Jackson, who gave the loyal Van Gundy his first break at Providence. And Jackson, meanwhile, believed Grunfeld got him fired in his second season (1989-90) with the Knicks by reporting negative information to Bianchi -- who would make Grunfeld his assistant and his friend (John McLeod) the head coach. "

Posted by: ts35 | June 7, 2010 12:59 PM | Report abuse

http://www.knickscity.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-5991.html

The most difficult decision of former Madison Square Garden president Dave Checketts' career came late in the 1998-99 Knicks regular season when he was told to fire either the team's general manager or coach, Checketts told a group of college students yesterday.

Speaking for 90 minutes on a Farmingdale State College theater stage, Checketts went into great detail about what transpired when he fired Knicks GM Ernie Grunfeld - instead of coach Jeff Van Gundy - with eight games remaining in 1999, a move that preceded the team's run to the NBA Finals.

The Knicks had been struggling and Grunfeld and Van Gundy were actively taking shots at each other. "Our ownership saw this," he said, "and I think our ownership did the wrong thing."

James Dolan, president of Cablevision - which now owns Newsday - told him to fire one of the two, according to Checketts.

"I said they don't need to be fired," Checketts said. "I know they're not getting along. But Phil Jackson, the coach in Chicago, and Jerry Krause, the general manager in Chicago, never spoke to each other. Never had a word with each other for six years and they won six NBA titles. So don't tell me they have to work together. They don't. Ernie has to pick players, Jeff has to coach. That's the way it is. I'll do the rest. I'll referee.

"But ownership stayed on me that I had to pick one or the other. I was put in a very difficult position."

Dolan declined to comment for this story, but a person close to Madison Square Garden disputed Checketts' version, saying, "Nine years later people will conveniently change the facts in a clear attempt to remain relevant."

Posted by: ts35 | June 7, 2010 1:00 PM | Report abuse

I think the only verifiable 'fact' in all of it is that James Dolan is a proven nutjob of the first order.

Posted by: ts35 | June 7, 2010 1:01 PM | Report abuse

Dolan is also responsible for the insane decision to trade Patrick Ewing for Vin Baker and a collection of crap, rather than let his contract expire and use the huge lump of cap space to rebuild. In fact, the same "the Knicks don't rebuild" edict that underscore the Ewing deal was also the driving force behind the terrible deals Isiah Thomas made.

While Thomas is certainly responsible for the individual players he chose to acquire, there was a clear organizational mindset from up above that favored acquiring proven, big name players to foster a "win now" environment rather than acquiring, developing, and building around young talent over time.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 7, 2010 1:12 PM | Report abuse

EG's 2nd rounders with the Wiz
2004 - Peter John Ramos - (failed to adhere to the rule not to trust someone with three names)
2005 - Andray Blatche - NBA starter
2006 - Veermenko - still in Europe
2007 - Dom McGuire - productive role player
2008 - trade
2009 - trade

I see 1 good move in that list, obviously AB. Calling Dom a "productive role player" when he could barely get off the bench in Sacramento and averaged .7pts/game this season is really a stretch. And if he really is a productive role player, why did we trade him?

Trading the 5th pick for Miller/Foye seemed like a solid move (I agreed with it for sure), but it was based upon false assumptions about the team. Seems like some people here want to hold EG to the same standards as a fan.

And samson, not sure why you cite the knicks and bucks records after just telling me I shouldnt look at their drafts when judging EGs draft acumen.

Bottomline for the Wizards on EGs tenure is 1 playoff series win. That's it. And when people want to blame AB for being lazy or NY for being immature....you also have to assign culpability to the person who interviewed these guys and decided to draft them. Cuts both ways is all I'm saying.

Of course, I guess we could always use the EG standard on the players..."AB isnt the WORST knucklehead in the league and NY doesnt play the WORST defense- then it's all good! ;)

Posted by: divi3 | June 7, 2010 1:12 PM | Report abuse

"And when people want to blame AB for being lazy or NY for being immature....you also have to assign culpability to the person who interviewed these guys and decided to draft them. Cuts both ways is all I'm saying."

Well then, by that same standard, shouldn't people like you, who seem to think that Blatche is a multiple All-Star and future HOFer in the making, also give Grunfeld credit for looking past that first impression and seeing the potential inherent in him?

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 7, 2010 1:19 PM | Report abuse

what do you think of Stanley Robinson Samson 151?

Posted by: dakel76 | June 7, 2010 1:20 PM | Report abuse

Even if Ernie had never been fired from the Knicks or the Bucks, he doesn't deserve to continue-on as Wizard GM based-upon his own record here and how he managed or rather mis-managed the team.

*wave* Hey Rico/Melodious!

Posted by: closg | June 7, 2010 1:25 PM | Report abuse

Well then, by that same standard, shouldn't people like you, who seem to think that Blatche is a multiple All-Star and future HOFer in the making, also give Grunfeld credit for looking past that first impression and seeing the potential inherent in him?

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 7, 2010 1:19 PM

I give him credit for AB all the time, even in the post you just selectively quoted. And I just said earlier, that if/when JM pans out and we are set with an awesome, young frontcourt- all kudos will go to EG.

But with the credit for success goes culpability for failure.

Posted by: divi3 | June 7, 2010 1:25 PM | Report abuse

And here's a little somethin' for those still fuming over EG passing on Rubio:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/basketball/nba/06/04/rubio.timberwolves.ap/index.html

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 7, 2010 1:26 PM | Report abuse

Trading the 5th pick for Miller/Foye seemed like a solid move (I agreed with it for sure), but it was based upon false assumptions about the team. Seems like some people here want to hold EG to the same standards as a fan.

Posted by: divi3

I as a Wiz fan who hadn't seen anything of Foye as a T-Wolf, thought that he was worth the 5th pick as he was a lotto-pick in his draft. The thinking was that Foye was a "young vet" with a nice ceiling. Miller was not the center-piece of the trade. As it turns out, Foye was overrated and not worth the 5th pick in any draft.

But again, I am a fan who didn't get to see the lowly wolves play. I don't pay to build a team and get value for my picks. Grunfeld blew it. I don't care the status of the team at the time, or the rationale for the trade. He gave up the 5th pick for two role players who are unrestricted after the first year.

Posted by: G-Man11 | June 7, 2010 1:26 PM | Report abuse

but if he really did try and trade AB for DJ Augustine....then he'd better thank MJ for being even more inept at that moment.

Posted by: divi3 | June 7, 2010 1:27 PM | Report abuse

Of course, I guess we could always use the EG standard on the players..."AB isnt the WORST knucklehead in the league and NY doesnt play the WORST defense- then it's all good! ;)

Posted by: divi3 | June 7, 2010 1:12 PM

Or you could stop being intellectually dishonest. Grunfeld took one of the worst-run franchises in pro sports and turned it into a perennial playoff team. Were it not for the Arenas knee injury it would have been more like 6-7 straight years in the playoffs. Prior to Grunfeld, the Wizards had made the postseason, I think, once in 17 years. Why is it so hard to give credit where credit is due?

Posted by: 2020doc | June 7, 2010 1:31 PM | Report abuse

He gave up the 5th pick for two role players who are unrestricted after the first year.

Posted by: G-Man11 | June 7, 2010 1:26 PM

Foye is unrestricted. The Wiz keep him if they want him.

Posted by: 2020doc | June 7, 2010 1:34 PM | Report abuse

"But with the credit for success goes culpability for failure."


no question. The question is, what, exactly, can and can't one person be credited/blamed for? Blaming Grunfeld for failing to acquire a legit low-post presence or building a decent bench when it really counted is fair. Blaming him for Arenas being a gun-obsessed idiot with no common sense judgment is not.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 7, 2010 1:34 PM | Report abuse

but if he really did try and trade AB for DJ Augustine....then he'd better thank MJ for being even more inept at that moment.

Posted by: divi3 | June 7, 2010 1:27 PM

How is MJ more inept if Grunfeld is the one who was looking at Blatche every day for four years? Nice logic.

Posted by: 2020doc | June 7, 2010 1:36 PM | Report abuse

How is MJ more inept if Grunfeld is the one who was looking at Blatche every day for four years? Nice logic.

Posted by: 2020doc | June 7, 2010 1:36 PM

Looking a gift horse in the mouth? Ok, you're right, EG was the bigger idiot in that scenario.

Posted by: divi3 | June 7, 2010 1:39 PM | Report abuse

Or you could stop being intellectually dishonest. Grunfeld took one of the worst-run franchises in pro sports and turned it into a perennial playoff team. Were it not for the Arenas knee injury it would have been more like 6-7 straight years in the playoffs. Prior to Grunfeld, the Wizards had made the postseason, I think, once in 17 years. Why is it so hard to give credit where credit is due?

Posted by: 2020doc | June 7, 2010 1:31 PM

It's intellectually dishonest to make assumptions of success based on Gil's health, considering as soon as he was full-time again he brought guns to the locker room and destroyed the team (blessing in disguise really). If there is any assumtion to be made, it's that some sort of idiocy would have transpired several years ago had Arenas remained healthy.

I've not at any point said EG is a total failure or that he should be fired, all I'm saying is he's culpable for the pathetic past few seasons just as much as he's credited with any success

Posted by: divi3 | June 7, 2010 1:44 PM | Report abuse

"The most difficult decision of former Madison Square Garden president Dave Checketts' career came late in the 1998-99 Knicks regular season when he was told to fire either the team's general manager or coach, Checketts told a group of college students yesterday.posted by ts35"

Thanks for digging that up. I did not know that.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 7, 2010 1:44 PM | Report abuse

"Calling Dom a "productive role player" when he could barely get off the bench in Sacramento and averaged .7pts/game this season is really a stretch. And if he really is a productive role player, why did we trade him?"
Posted by: divi3

Um, as the saying goes...straight cash homey? He got us under the LT. I don't know if that's a fair portrayal of his role either, div. He joined Sacramento in the middle of the year and was hurt 10 games in. Here he got squeezed by Arenas and Haywood coming back and Miller and Foye coming in. When he was able to get good minutes for the Wiz, last season, he averaged 5pts, 5rbs, 2asts a steal and a block in 25mins. That, to me, is a productive role player.

"Of course, I guess we could always use the EG standard on the players..."AB isnt the WORST knucklehead in the league and NY doesnt play the WORST defense- then it's all good! ;)"

Can't we use divi standard on AB and already give EG credit for drafting an All-Star and one of the top PF's in the game?

Since the argument I'm pretty sure you put on the table was is he the guy to find talent at the end of the first and top of the second, that's what I was responding to, so the parts about the 5th pick trades etc, really aren't germane to that argument. With 3 of his second rounders with the Wiz, Veer and the two trades, you could argue those were more about cash than talent.

Furthermore, I don't think anyone is arguing that EG is the bomb-diggi.....I don't think anyone other than melo_t is arguing that EG is the bomb-diggity, just competent. I agree with you that EG is responsible for drafting the young knucklehead brigade, that's part of why I think he should go. That's not the same as arguing he can't find productive players late because his career bears out that he can.

Posted by: ts35 | June 7, 2010 1:44 PM | Report abuse

It's sort of the Bill Cosby method. As in: "I don't care who started it. I'm takin' out the one closest to me."

Posted by: Samson151 | June 7, 2010 1:45 PM | Report abuse

Some of you guys are certifiably schizophrenic!

Those of you complaining the loudest and most vehemently about Ernest are the same ones who howled that Abe Pollin (RIP) was perhaps the worst and most meddlesome owner in all of sports (although you allowed that he was a benevolent philanthropist), yet now you conveniently pretend that Ernest was calling all the shots and was in complete control of the organization. Folly!

At any rate, Ernest is now working for an owner who will let him create a winner that will be of championship quality. All we as fans have to do is sit back, observe Ernest's brilliance and reap the benefits of doing so.

Ernest is creating a masterpiece, bar by bar, while the rest of the league is just sampling from Top 40 hits. No contest! You tin-ear haters out there don't deserve his hard work and the fruits of his labor, but he'll continue about his single-minded mission just the same.

In Grunfeld We Trust!!

Posted by: melodious_thunk | June 7, 2010 12:53 PM

Bravo!
Bravo!!
Bravo!!!

Posted by: and_1 | June 7, 2010 1:47 PM | Report abuse

Foye is unrestricted. The Wiz keep him if they want him.

Posted by: 2020doc

The Wiz can keep him if they want, but Foye is NOT worth the 5th pick in any draft. He is a late lottery pick at best. Grunfeld should have already known that. There are at least 6 players from last years draft that were available with the 5th pick that I would rather be a Wizard(Curry, Jennings, DeRozan, Holiday, Daye, James Johnson). They may not be great, but neither are Foye or Miller.

Posted by: G-Man11 | June 7, 2010 1:53 PM | Report abuse

"But with the credit for success goes culpability for failure.Posted by: divi3"

Well, whether or not he's culpable, the GM, like the head coach, gets blamed. Also star players. Around here we spend a lot of time assigning blame to individuals for what is probably best described as collective wrongs. But hey, we need to debate something, right?

Posted by: Samson151 | June 7, 2010 1:55 PM | Report abuse


It's intellectually dishonest to make assumptions of success based on Gil's health, considering as soon as he was full-time again he brought guns to the locker room and destroyed the team (blessing in disguise really). If there is any assumtion to be made, it's that some sort of idiocy would have transpired several years ago had Arenas remained healthy.


Posted by: divi3 | June 7, 2010 1:44 PM

Ho long have you limped along with your faulty reasoning skills?

Gil's "health" in 2009-2010 was a far cry from 2006-2007, no? Logically, the core of the team with an Arenas who had never injured his knee would have been in the playoffs, as they had been previously, considering each member of the core was peaking or was in his prime during the lost years. There's no dishonesty with that line of reasoning.

Posted by: 2020doc | June 7, 2010 1:55 PM | Report abuse

I'd take James Singleton over Dom McGuire and Singleton is considered a productive role-player. McGuire is not as productive.

Posted by: G-Man11 | June 7, 2010 1:57 PM | Report abuse

The Wiz can keep him if they want, but Foye is NOT worth the 5th pick in any draft. He is a late lottery pick at best. Grunfeld should have already known that. There are at least 6 players from last years draft that were available with the 5th pick that I would rather be a Wizard(Curry, Jennings, DeRozan, Holiday, Daye, James Johnson). They may not be great, but neither are Foye or Miller.

Posted by: G-Man11 | June 7, 2010 1:53 P

But then again, they didn't trade the pick straight up for Foye, did they?
Minnesota got Pecherov, Darius S, Etan and the 5th pick; we got Foye and Miller. People who get paid a lot money to know these things thought the Wizards had instantly catapulted themselves into a deep playoff run.
You did say Foye was unrestricted. That is false.

Posted by: 2020doc | June 7, 2010 2:01 PM | Report abuse

"The Wiz can keep him if they want, but Foye is NOT worth the 5th pick in any draft."

Well, he might have been in the '09 draft, since the pick was Ricky Rubio, and Ricky says he ain't gonna play til at least 2011, and possibly not for the team that drafted him.

Besides, they got both Foye and Miller, and together those two guys are worth Ricky Rubio if the team had been worth a schmidt. (Which it wasn't).

Our fantasy is we would have picked Brandon Jennings, but we're pretty sure the Wiz wouldn't. So Foye + Miller for Ricky Rubio in 2011 -- if he feels like it? That's not a bad trade.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 7, 2010 2:02 PM | Report abuse

"Since the argument I'm pretty sure you put on the table was is he the guy to find talent at the end of the first and top of the second"

You probably havent read all of this retarded discussion, but in one of my ramblings I mentioned bottom of first and top of second are not the same ballpark as 49th (where AB was picked). In looking over EGs draft record, I thought there was some consistency in him missing on productive players who went within several picks of where he drafted. It's one thing when a guy 20picks later blows up, everybody was just flat wrong.

But when guys in the same general vicinity as your pick do better- then you've chosen the wrong guy out of a group everyone was looking at.

Posted by: divi3 | June 7, 2010 2:02 PM | Report abuse

I'd take James Singleton over Dom McGuire and Singleton is considered a productive role-player. McGuire is not as productive.

Posted by: G-Man11

Yet strangely, their career averages are remarkably the same. If guys like Farmar, Lowry, and Shannon Brown are the standard being argued here for being a productive role player, then Dom is a productive role player.

Posted by: ts35 | June 7, 2010 2:04 PM | Report abuse

Minnesota got Pecherov, Darius S, Etan and the 5th pick; we got Foye and Miller. People who get paid a lot money to know these things thought the Wizards had instantly catapulted themselves into a deep playoff run.
You did say Foye was unrestricted. That is false.

Posted by: 2020doc |
So what you are saying is that they traded the 5th pick in the draft for salary cap space. Oh, that's right, they get the right to keep Foye. As for trading Etan and Songaila, who gave them the contracts to begin with and when are those contracts expiring? You keep the cap space, give me the 5th pick.

Posted by: G-Man11 | June 7, 2010 2:19 PM | Report abuse

According to this very Wash Post Wiz Insider, Ernie Grunfeld offered-up Andray Blatche for DJ Augustin: Astonishing!!
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/wizardsinsider/2010/02/fun-is-over-wizards-had-to-mak.html?wprss=wizardsinsider

During the Wizards fire sale, Grunfeld turned-down Portland's offer of a 1st Round draft pick & Jeff Pendergrass for Brendan Haywood. An unbelievable opportunity to get a 1st round pick squandered.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=mc-tradebuzz021310

Ernie Grunfeld, talent evaluator said this about last years draft class.

"I didn't feel like there was anybody at the five spot who could fit into our rotation," Grunfeld said.

And some here want to continue to "Trust" Ernie Grunfeld?

Posted by: closg | June 7, 2010 2:21 PM | Report abuse

"I'd take James Singleton over Dom McGuire and Singleton is considered a productive role-player. McGuire is not as productive."

Hard to support that argument with actual quantifiable evidence:

Singleton: 3.7 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 0.4 apg, .5 topg

McGuire: 2.4 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 1.2 apg, 0.4 spg, .24 topg

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 7, 2010 2:26 PM | Report abuse

Those are career numbers, BTW.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 7, 2010 2:26 PM | Report abuse

Yet strangely, their career averages are remarkably the same. If guys like Farmar, Lowry, and Shannon Brown are the standard being argued here for being a productive role player, then Dom is a productive role player.

Posted by: ts35

Let me make it clear before you try to twist what I say.

DOMINIQUE MCGUIRE IS A PRODUCTIVE ROLE PLAYER. HE IS NOT AS GOOD AS JAMES MCGUIRE. I DON'T CARE ABOUT STATISTICS. SINGLETON IS A BETTER REBOUNDER, A STRONGER DEFENDER. MCGUIRE IS A BETTER BALL-HANDLER AND PASSER. ALL BY SMALL MARGINS. THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO IS SINGLETON IS A BETTER MID-RANGE SHOOTER AND CAN HIT THE 3 OCCASSIONALLY. MCGUIRE IS NOT A GOOD SHOOTER. PERIOD.

Posted by: G-Man11 | June 7, 2010 2:27 PM | Report abuse

I meant Dominique McGuire is not as good as James Singleton.

Posted by: G-Man11 | June 7, 2010 2:29 PM | Report abuse

I meant Dominique McGuire is not as good as James Singleton.

Posted by: G-Man11 | June 7, 2010 2:29 PM | Report abuse

G-Man11, are you suggesting that players who are given a contract by Team A should not be traded by Team A? Ever?

At least one other team thought Etan deserved that contract since the Wizards in fact matched it to retain him. The Wizards thought they had a chance to dump salary and upgrade talent and they made the trade.

Posted by: 2020doc | June 7, 2010 2:29 PM | Report abuse

During the Wizards fire sale, Grunfeld turned-down Portland's offer of a 1st Round draft pick & Jeff Pendergrass for Brendan Haywood. An unbelievable opportunity to get a 1st round pick squandered.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=mc-tradebuzz021310

If that's true it's criminally inept! We got NADA for Haywood, and Pendergraph is exactly the kind of player we're supposed to be happy about finding towards the end of the 1st/ top of 2nd in this draft. Plus a 1st round pick?? Hard to believe EG turned that deal down, hope it's just rumors

Posted by: divi3 | June 7, 2010 2:31 PM | Report abuse

"DOMINIQUE MCGUIRE IS A PRODUCTIVE ROLE PLAYER. HE IS NOT AS GOOD AS JAMES MCGUIRE. I DON'T CARE ABOUT STATISTICS. SINGLETON IS A BETTER REBOUNDER, A STRONGER DEFENDER. MCGUIRE IS A BETTER BALL-HANDLER AND PASSER. ALL BY SMALL MARGINS. THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO IS SINGLETON IS A BETTER MID-RANGE SHOOTER AND CAN HIT THE 3 OCCASSIONALLY. MCGUIRE IS NOT A GOOD SHOOTER. PERIOD."

Assuming that is true (and that's a stretch), all it really does is qualify the particular roles for which each is supposedly better suited. It, in no way, shape or form, stands as a substantive argument that Singleton is better across the board than McGuire.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 7, 2010 2:32 PM | Report abuse

"We got NADA for Haywood"

i guess we did move DBrick in that trade, and it would look better if Howard's knee held out

but still!

Posted by: divi3 | June 7, 2010 2:33 PM | Report abuse

But when guys in the same general vicinity as your pick do better- then you've chosen the wrong guy out of a group everyone was looking at.

Posted by: divi3

So far we have he botched it with Pech. Mainly because of Rondo. Who's blowing your doors off taken after Nick Young? Brooks is the only guy in the neighborhood after him who's proven to be better. And you know I'm not an NY fan.

Landry and Big Baby were taken in the second, but they're the kind of guys with talent who drop into the second because they have big questions too (height and weight respectively). So teams are loathe to give them guaranteed money.

Anyone in the 08 draft taken after McGee who's blowing up? Hill may eventually be Parker's successor, but at this point it's all upside and has he shown more than McGee?

We've already thrown out the Jarvis Hayes draft because EG wasn't hired until after that draft.

Picking at the end of the first is a different animal. It's harder, because you have all of the first round expectations, when in truth the talent may not be any better than it is throughout the second.

In the second, with Veer...at the 48th pick. Which I believe you've already given him two inadvertent passes for. One for saying that part of the draft is excusable (taken one pick ahead of where AB was taken) and last week by arguing it makes sense to draft size over talent if that's what you need. And we did miss out on Leon Powe.........(I'll pause while the sadness of that loss washes over you).

I'll spot you McGuire over Marc Gasol as a mistake (even though it was in that same AB range - 47th). I think a lot of us would have taken a shot on Gasol, but as a back-up big because that's what everyone thought he was. Someone to come in, lean on someone for a bit and collect some fouls. I don't even know if the Lakers had an idea how good he might be when they picked him. Memphis might have when they included him in the trade, but it is fair to say they had inside knowledge. ;-)

So I guess I'm asking, where's the pattern of blowing it in the draft? We got one first round botch, and a second round maybe?

Posted by: ts35 | June 7, 2010 2:37 PM | Report abuse

But when guys in the same general vicinity as your pick do better- then you've chosen the wrong guy out of a group everyone was looking at.

Posted by: divi3

So far we have he botched it with Pech. Mainly because of Rondo. Who's blowing your doors off taken after Nick Young? Brooks is the only guy in the neighborhood after him who's proven to be better. And you know I'm not an NY fan.

Landry and Big Baby were taken in the second, but they're the kind of guys with talent who drop into the second because they have big questions too (height and weight respectively). So teams are loathe to give them guaranteed money.

Anyone in the 08 draft taken after McGee who's blowing up? Hill may eventually be Parker's successor, but at this point it's all upside and has he shown more than McGee?

We've already thrown out the Jarvis Hayes draft because EG wasn't hired until after that draft.

Picking at the end of the first is a different animal. It's harder, because you have all of the first round expectations, when in truth the talent may not be any better than it is throughout the second.

In the second, with Veer...at the 48th pick. Which I believe you've already given him two inadvertent passes for. One for saying that part of the draft is excusable (taken one pick ahead of where AB was taken) and last week by arguing it makes sense to draft size over talent if that's what you need. And we did miss out on Leon Powe.........(I'll pause while the sadness of that loss washes over you).

I'll spot you McGuire over Marc Gasol as a mistake (even though it was in that same AB range - 47th). I think a lot of us would have taken a shot on Gasol, but as a back-up big because that's what everyone thought he was. Someone to come in, lean on someone for a bit and collect some fouls. I don't even know if the Lakers had an idea how good he might be when they picked him. Memphis might have when they included him in the trade, but it is fair to say they had inside knowledge. ;-)

So I guess I'm asking, where's the pattern of blowing it in the draft? We got one first round botch, and a second round maybe?

Posted by: ts35 | June 7, 2010 2:37 PM | Report abuse


And some here want to continue to "Trust" Ernie Grunfeld?

Posted by: closg | June 7, 2010 2:21 PM

Yes.

He was able to unload DeShawn and Brendan by being patient and waiting on the Dallas offer (netting Howard and Singleton). Singleton, in particular, looks like that hustle guy every team needs. Kudos to you, Ernie!

Posted by: 2020doc | June 7, 2010 2:37 PM | Report abuse

Re: The Portland offer per Yahoo

"The Blazers offered Steve Blake(notes), rookie Jeff Pendergraph(notes) and a first-round pick for Haywood. When Washington countered by asking for swingman Rudy Fernandez(notes), the Blazers declined. Blazers owner Paul Allen is a big fan of Fernandez."

What a stupid and greedy fool Grunfeld is. Portland offers a 1st Round pick (even if it were next-years) for a guy on his way out the door and this guy gets greedy.

Posted by: closg | June 7, 2010 2:40 PM | Report abuse

2020doc

No I am not. Don't be ridiculous. You said the Wizards thought they had a chance to dump salary(and they did)and upgrade talent. Where was the upgrade in talent? They traded 2 role players with a couple years left on their contracts(Etan, Songaila)+ fools gold(Pecherov) AND the 5th pick for 2 role players (Miller, Foye) with 1 year left on their contracts. And the fool's gold is Foye.

That was not a good trade.

Posted by: G-Man11 | June 7, 2010 2:41 PM | Report abuse

Where was the upgrade in talent? They traded 2 role players with a couple years left on their contracts(Etan, Songaila)+ fools gold(Pecherov) AND the 5th pick for 2 role players (Miller, Foye) with 1 year left on their contracts. And the fool's gold is Foye.

That was not a good trade.


Posted by: G-Man11 | June 7, 2010 2:41 PM

Actually, they traded for two starters off of Minnesota's team. Miller ultimately started here also (even before the implosion). If you don't like them, so be it. But don't tell lies like "He gave up the 5th pick for two role players who are unrestricted after the first year".

Posted by: 2020doc | June 7, 2010 2:47 PM | Report abuse

Assuming that is true (and that's a stretch), all it really does is qualify the particular roles for which each is supposedly better suited. It, in no way, shape or form, stands as a substantive argument that Singleton is better across the board than McGuire.

Posted by: kalo_rama


How about I say "in my opinion, based on watching them play", I think Singleton is better. Is that substantive enough or less of a stretch for you, becuase you sure didn't tell me your opinion based on one bit of criteria.

Posted by: G-Man11 | June 7, 2010 2:48 PM | Report abuse

What a stupid and greedy fool Grunfeld is. Portland offers a 1st Round pick (even if it were next-years) for a guy on his way out the door and this guy gets greedy.

Posted by: closg | June 7, 2010 2:40 PM

Only the truly ignorant can't see that the better deal was the one he made with Dallas. 'Tis a pity.

Posted by: 2020doc | June 7, 2010 2:49 PM | Report abuse

Yes.

Posted by: 2020doc
He was able to unload DeShawn and Brendan by being patient and waiting on the Dallas offer (netting Howard and Singleton). Singleton, in particular, looks like that hustle guy every team needs. Kudos to you, Ernie!
...........................................

Thanks 2020 for the reminder of further Grunfeld incompetence. Mark Cuban famously said this after the trade:

"Mark Cuban told reporters after the deadline he would have made the trade without Haywood included."

So Ernie was a fool twice, 1st by turning-down Portlands offer of a 1st Round pick for Haywood only to giveaway Haywood later to Dallas for nothing. Pathetic & laughable.

Posted by: closg | June 7, 2010 2:53 PM | Report abuse

"Mark Cuban told reporters after the deadline he would have made the trade without Haywood included."

So Ernie was a fool twice, 1st by turning-down Portlands offer of a 1st Round pick for Haywood only to giveaway Haywood later to Dallas for nothing. Pathetic & laughable.

Posted by: closg | June 7, 2010 2:53 PM

Who gives a rat's rear what Cuban said? Gamesmanship never ends with him. BTW, and don't tell anyone, but I think Ernie got the last laugh on the trade.

Posted by: 2020doc | June 7, 2010 2:58 PM | Report abuse

Actually, they traded for two starters off of Minnesota's team. Miller ultimately started here also (even before the implosion). If you don't like them, so be it. But don't tell lies like "He gave up the 5th pick for two role players who are unrestricted after the first year".

Posted by: 2020doc

If I was inaccurate about saying "unrestricted", instead of just saying "free agent" so be it. I was wrong. Why do you have your panties in a twist over that?

The fact is role-players start sometimes too. I never said they weren't starters. And I know you aren't implying that becuase Foye and Miller started on Minnesota, that qualifies them as more than role players. I am not saying Foye and Miller are bad players either. But to give up the 5th pick for cap space. NO! Because if they are not resigned, that is all they got for the 5th pick. That sounds not too different than selling the second round picks.


Posted by: G-Man11 | June 7, 2010 3:01 PM | Report abuse

Let's see how things shake-out after the draft & FA. I don't trust Ernie, but I don't have any choice.

Posted by: closg | June 7, 2010 3:03 PM | Report abuse

If I was inaccurate about saying "unrestricted", instead of just saying "free agent" so be it. I was wrong. Why do you have your panties in a twist over that?

posted by: G-Man11

There is a MAJOR difference between restricted and unrestricted. Hence, I made my comment. Don't get your drawers in a bunch because you were flat wrong. Stick to opinions and stay away from facts. They're not your friend.

Posted by: 2020doc | June 7, 2010 3:10 PM | Report abuse

I am not saying Foye and Miller are bad players either. But to give up the 5th pick for cap space. NO! Because if they are not resigned, that is all they got for the 5th pick. That sounds not too different than selling the second round picks.

Posted by: G-Man11

They may end up with nothing but cap space, but that's not what they were traded for. They were traded for to provide immediate depth to a team that was seen by many to be a playoff team. Our bench at the time consisted mainly of young, less-than-proven players in AB, Young and McGee, plus DeShawn coming off of an injury-plagued season.

If you look at it through that lens it makes sense over drafting another rook in a draft class that wasn't deemed that strong, though history has proven otherwise. Curry was questioned on whether he could play the point and get his shot off in the NBA, Jennings didn't exactly light up Euroleague, etc. etc. etc.

Now you can say EG was delusional about his team's prospects for the season, and I won't disagree.

And all of that being said, the position the Wiz find themselves in isn't the worst place in the world. We missed out on Curry, Jennings, etc, but now we get a shot at Wall, who has the potential to be better than anyone they could have taken at #5.

Posted by: ts35 | June 7, 2010 3:15 PM | Report abuse

2020doc

I have been wrong before. It is not the first time. It won't be the last. But you must be one of those who think they are right all the time. Most of the people that I know who are like that are women.

If that is all you want to do is pick that out, wow.

Like I said, if Miller signs elsewhere, the Wiz let Foye walk by not matching the offer, they then traded the 5th pick for cap space OR to save some money.

Posted by: G-Man11 | June 7, 2010 3:23 PM | Report abuse

"How about I say "in my opinion, based on watching them play", I think Singleton is better. Is that substantive enough or less of a stretch for you, becuase you sure didn't tell me your opinion based on one bit of criteria."

Sure I did. I told you that, in my opinion (as supported by actual quantifiable factual evidence) your assertion that Singleton is a more productive role player than McGuire is baseless and without provable foundation.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 7, 2010 3:30 PM | Report abuse

2020doc

I have been wrong before. It is not the first time. It won't be the last. But you must be one of those who think they are right all the time. Most of the people that I know who are like that are women.

If that is all you want to do is pick that out, wow.

Like I said, if Miller signs elsewhere, the Wiz let Foye walk by not matching the offer, they then traded the 5th pick for cap space OR to save some money.

Posted by: G-Man11 | June 7, 2010 3:23 PM

I'm sure your mother, wife or girlfriend, sister, daughter, etc. are all overjoyed at your undeniably sexist view of women. It really is amazing what people reveal when their feelings are hurt. I had no idea your posts were that dear to your heart.

Wait a minute--you're the same guy who was calling out kalo_rama a few days ago for not answering your post, as if we don't all have lives and must hang onto your or anybody's every word. Forgive me. It's all too clear now.

Posted by: 2020doc | June 7, 2010 3:35 PM | Report abuse

"Like I said, if Miller signs elsewhere, the Wiz let Foye walk by not matching the offer, they then traded the 5th pick for cap space OR to save some money."

Not true. They traded the 5th pick for two players they thought would help them in their pursuit of a title. But they did so in a way that would give them cap and roster flexibility moving forward. Would you have preferred they'd traded the 5th pick for two players with long-term guaranteed contracts that would be albatrosses on the team's cap for the next several years?

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 7, 2010 3:38 PM | Report abuse

When I said certainly not the worst, I should of qualified more. He's certainly not the worst still employed. and he's better than any known options currently out there that would consider working for the Wizards.

That being said, there could be some young people out there ready to make the jump into a GM position that could do better, but as far known possibilities...

Two bigger names, like Ainge and Ferry (who is now available, I don't think are any better. Ainge got made a couple good trade to bring in some much older players, and it worked out. He gave up almost everything to get them. Rondo was a good pick, but also, let's be honest, they needed a PG so bad with that pick, they had to take him. It wasn't like they knew something other teams didn't about him.

Ferry lost Boozer (he was the GM then, right?). Then continually tried to magically patch holes for a championship run each year instead of building towards the future.

Sam Presti has done a tremendous job with Oklahoma. He's had some great draft positions, though. Not having to choose between Oden and Durant. Having a top 5 pick in the highly talented 2008 draft. But the fact that he's not pushing to win now as much as he's trying to develop players, teammates, and keep financial flexibility. Hopefully he doesn't wait too long, like Chicago did, before making use of his cap space and players.

Posted by: segastyle | June 7, 2010 4:01 PM | Report abuse

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