Network News

X My Profile
View More Activity
On Twitter: MrMichaelLee and PostSports  |  Facebook  |  E-mail alerts: Redskins and Sports  |  RSS

John Wall's welcome to D.C.


By Michael Lee  |  June 26, 2010; 10:44 AM ET
Categories:  John Wall  
Save & Share:  Send E-mail   Facebook   Twitter   Digg   Yahoo Buzz   Del.icio.us   StumbleUpon   Technorati   Google Buzz   Previous: Andray Blatche to miss three months
Next: What the draft moves mean for the Wizards

Comments

Wall, Seraphin and Booker. Each handpicked by Ernest Grunfeld and destined for stardom.

Hinrich, a gritty combo guard who has always given the Wizards problems over the years and is now in the fold to ease Wall's transition into the pros while providing toughness and stability in our backcourt.

As usual the tin-ear rabble-rousers are not in tune with the brilliant moves Ernest has made, but in time even his most rabid haters will readily allow that he has once again provided solid footing for this team for years to come.

Ernest Grunfeld can do his job with blindfold on and still crush 95% of the GMs in the league, folks.

In Grunfeld We Trust!!

Posted by: melodious_thunk | June 26, 2010 11:20 AM | Report abuse

Wizards Summer League News

Jerome Randle, Jon Scheyer, Raymar Morgan...

Posted by: djnnnou | June 26, 2010 12:22 PM | Report abuse

NBA Summer League 2010 Schedule Announced

July 12 - Washington vs. LA Clippers(Bledsoe)

Posted by: djnnnou | June 26, 2010 1:02 PM | Report abuse

You might want to double-check that, djnnnou.

nbadraft.net is reporting that Jon Scheyer will play for Miami.


http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/scheyer-play-miamis-summer-league-team-and-other-sl-additions

Posted by: bobabuie | June 26, 2010 3:08 PM | Report abuse

"Wall, Seraphin and Booker. Each handpicked by Ernest Grunfeld and destined for stardom.Hinrich, a gritty combo guard who has always given the Wizards problems over the years and is now in the fold to ease Wall's transition into the pros while providing toughness and stability in our backcourt.As usual the tin-ear rabble-rousers are not in tune with the brilliant moves Ernest has made, but in time even his most rabid haters will readily allow that he has once again provided solid footing for this team for years to come.
Ernest Grunfeld can do his job with blindfold on and still crush 95% of the GMs in the league, folks.In Grunfeld We Trust!!Posted by: melodious_thunk"

Ordinarily I don't read these because in their own way they're as strange as the anti-Ernie rants. But this one is so over the top it seems like a troll.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 26, 2010 4:03 PM | Report abuse

I like Raymar Morgan, but are we trying to corner the market on SFs who play like PFs?

Posted by: ts35 | June 26, 2010 4:07 PM | Report abuse

from BJ Pierson on SBNation:
"Trevor Booker (23rd pick via Minnesota): Booker is a decent power forward, albeit a little short at 6-foot-8. Despite his size, he is a tough and physical presence on the court. It's not a great pick at this spot, nor is it a bad one either. The questionable part about this selection is the price paid to get Booker. The Wizards gave up two picks, 30th and 35th, for Booker. Conventional wisdom says that in the bottom half of the draft, players drafted in the 20s and 30s are generally quite comparable. Why were the Wizards giving up two players for one player that is probably roughly equal in talent and one player at the 56th pick that is far less talented? Time will tell how good a player Booker will become but as it stands now, the price paid for him was too high."

Not to stomp on a dead equine, but if you haven't yet realized that this was the weirdest draft-trade season in recent memory, you probably never will. Teams were forcing first-rounders and veterans on other clubs in an effort to free up space for FA on July 8. EG was pretty open about his fear that his two remaining top rated prospects would be gone by pick 30, thus the trade to 23. We'll never know if he was right about that, of course. But at least the guy explained it. Not that BJ Pierson was paying attention.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 26, 2010 4:11 PM | Report abuse

Samson, do you buy the report that was circulated that Minnie actually made the pick first and then EG traded for him?

Posted by: ts35 | June 26, 2010 4:17 PM | Report abuse

Trying to remember if the word on the trade leaked before the Minnie pick or after

Posted by: ts35 | June 26, 2010 4:19 PM | Report abuse

More from Pierson at SBNation:
"Kirk Hinrich (via Chicago Bulls): Two words first came to mind when I was about to write the "Bad Decisions" section and they were "Kirk" and "Hinrich." The Wizards traded for a point guard that can neither shoot nor reliably run the point position and gets paid $17 million over the next two years. The team says they want Hinrich to mentor John Wall but why they want this is beyond me. It is not like he was mentoring Derrick Rose when Rose took his job away from him. Strapping themselves with an unreasonable contract for the next two seasons, instead of getting a player in his last year, is a huge negative for Hinrich."

Not sure if Pierson realizes Hinrich is coming off 6 playoff games where he averaged 39.2 minutes. Doesn't sound like a guy who lost his job, does it? Plus he averaged 42.3% FGs (50% on 3-pointers), 4 assists and only 0.4 TOs (that's 10 to 1 for the unarithmetical), plus 1.4 steals and 4.4 rebounds.

Not a great player, but a bad one? Hang around the Wiz, we'll show you what bad guard play looks like, BJ.

Yes, he's overpaid. But the Wiz have Gilbert Arenas. We know about all about overpaid.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 26, 2010 4:24 PM | Report abuse

Sorry, Chicago only had 5 playoff games, not 6. But BJ Pierson now wants to hate on Kevin Seraphin:

"Kevin Seraphin (17th pick via Chicago Bulls): There are a lot things to hate about this decision. Firstly, Seraphin is a project player. In baseball these kids are called toolsy. Serpahin looks like a 'baller with this 6'10" frame and athletic build, but he's only played basketball for the last three years. He is raw, plain and simple. Secondly, he was the key part of the Hinrich trade which, as you saw above, I really do not like at all. Sorry you got caught up in the wash dude, I know that part isn't your fault. Finally, he is French and after that horrific World Cup performance his countrymen had, well, one has to hope he didn't get sportsmanship lessons from the same gym teachers as those guys."

So basically, Pierson dislikes Seraphin because he's French and nobody ever heard of him. As for sportsmanship, doesn't he realize that the kid's name is only one letter off from "seraphim"? He could be an angel.

Here's the real mystery: how did BJ Pierson, who appears not to watch basketball at all, get a column on a popular blog?

Posted by: Samson151 | June 26, 2010 4:30 PM | Report abuse

Lost the PG job is what I took that to mean.

Posted by: ts35 | June 26, 2010 4:30 PM | Report abuse

"Samson, do you buy the report that was circulated that Minnie actually made the pick first and then EG traded for him?
Posted by: ts35"

I have not a clue. There were a lot of rumors flying. By the way, Bill Simmons has a very funny column journaling the draft on ESPN.com. I'm no Simmons fan but he apparently believes David Kahn was put on this earth to amuse us.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 26, 2010 4:38 PM | Report abuse

It was also reported that Pondexter (picked 26th) was the other guy he badly wanted with the 30th pick. If those reports are true, Ernie was on target.

Posted by: bobabuie | June 26, 2010 4:41 PM | Report abuse

By the way, Kirk Hinrich was traded dozens of times in past years, only to have them fall through at the last minute. That includes to Portland for Travis Outlaw and Steve Blake; to Denver for a future first; with another player to the Clips for Chris Kaman; to the Wolves for last year's #6 (Jonny Flynn); with Nocioni to the Clips for Elton Brand; with Tyrus Thomas, Drew Gooden and Jason Collins to Phoenix for Amare; to Washington with Mike James for Caron Butler; to Toronto with Tyrus for Bosh.

It's a crazy business, the NBA, and this season was one of the craziest.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 26, 2010 4:47 PM | Report abuse


On Trevor Booker, from ESPN.com (warning to BF78: it's positive so you may not want to read it):

Q: What player in this draft is getting less attention than he deserves?

David Thorpe: I'd lean heavily to Trevor Booker. NBA execs mention Paul Millsap and Carl Landry when they are discussing Booker. Um, hello? Those are two of the top 18 power forwards in the game! Booker has the "beast" mentality with long arms -- a perfect combination. If his neck was an inch longer, he'd be a lottery candidate. Who cares about neck length?

Q: What player outside of Chad Ford's top 30 could you plug into the rotation of one of the teams in the Finals?

Fran Fraschilla: Trevor Booker gets my vote too. I have always advocated for second-round selections who have what I call "winning skills." These are players that bring high energy on the court, a specific high-level skill and are low maintenance off the court. Booker fits this perfectly.

After four years as an ACC starter, he has competed against -- and in some cases dominated -- guys who are already in the NBA. His power, explosive jumping ability, nose for the ball and experience would make for a great rotation player early in his career on a team like the Celtics. Think of him as a Glen Davis or Leon Powe type, both of whom had knocks on them coming out of college, but helped the Celtics win a title in 2008.

Posted by: Urnesto | June 26, 2010 4:17 PM

melodius_thunk has infiltrated ESPN. This report is a little over-the-top on Booker.

Posted by: omgwthrotfl | June 26, 2010 4:55 PM | Report abuse

I'm no Simmons fan but he apparently believes David Kahn was put on this earth to amuse us.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 26, 2010 4:38 PM
Isn't that the team that got five guards from the draft last year? On the one hand who he picks might be criticized, but on the other hand he is able to get those draft picks from other teams. While Ernie struggles?

Posted by: rickgonz | June 26, 2010 4:58 PM | Report abuse

"Samson, do you buy the report that was circulated that Minnie actually made the pick first and then EG traded for him?
Posted by: ts35"

I have not a clue. There were a lot of rumors flying. By the way, Bill Simmons has a very funny column journaling the draft on ESPN.com. I'm no Simmons fan but he apparently believes David Kahn was put on this earth to amuse us.

Posted by: Samson151

Minnesota did trade away Gomes, and they'd like to get rid of Jefferson, so drafting Booker does make some sense for them.

Posted by: djnnnou | June 26, 2010 5:02 PM | Report abuse

Fran Faschilla: "evor Booker gets my vote too. I have always advocated for second-round selections who have what I call "winning skills." These are players that bring high energy on the court, a specific high-level skill and are low maintenance off the court. Booker fits this perfectly."

LOL except Booker was a first rounder.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 26, 2010 5:16 PM | Report abuse

Not to add to the Booker debate, but I suspect those combine times had something to do with his rapid rise. He was faster up and down the court than most guards. If I had drafted John Wall, I'd probably consider that an advantage.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 26, 2010 5:22 PM | Report abuse

The other advantage is that at least one guy will make it back on D ;-)

Posted by: ts35 | June 26, 2010 5:27 PM | Report abuse

Ernest Grunfeld can do his job with blindfold on and still crush 95% of the GMs in the league, folks.

In Grunfeld We Trust!!

Posted by: melodious_thunk | June 26, 2010 11:20 AM | Report abuse

He better not wear that blindfold around Minnesota's David Kahn.
Kahn badly abused him last year by unloading Miller and Foye for Rubio (a future star) and kicked his butt this year when he gave him Booker (similar to the ho-hum, former Bullet Larry Stewart, imho) for the 30th and 35th picks.
Kevin Pritchard is lurking.

Posted by: 2020doc | June 26, 2010 5:28 PM | Report abuse

melodius_thunk has infiltrated ESPN. This report is a little over-the-top on Booker.

Posted by: omgwthrotfl | June 26, 2010 4:55 PM

How so? I think the comparisons to Landry, Millsap, Davis, and Powe are apt. I don't think the commentators are saying he'll be as good as those guys, but rather that he has similar assets and deficits as those guys, and that being the case there's little reason to think that he can't work to uses his assets to compensate for his deficits (i.e., size) just like the others did.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 26, 2010 5:32 PM | Report abuse

and kicked his butt this year when he gave him Booker (similar to the ho-hum, former Bullet Larry Stewart, imho) for the 30th and 35th picks.

Posted by: 2020doc

And used those picks on Lazar Hayward and Nemanja Bjelica. Maybe they should just let him do the trading and let someone else do the drafting.

Posted by: ts35 | June 26, 2010 5:33 PM | Report abuse

Minnesota did trade away Gomes, and they'd like to get rid of Jefferson, so drafting Booker does make some sense for them.

Posted by: djnnnou | June 26, 2010 5:02 PM

It was widely reported that the T'Wolves offered the Pistons Jefferson for the #7 pick and Tayshaun Prince. Dumars wisely passed. (And, of course, Kahn then denied he ever spoke to Detroit.)

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 26, 2010 5:35 PM | Report abuse

"Multiple sources say that the Magic have discussed a deal with the Washington Wizards that would swap Vince Carter for Kirk Hinrich, Randy Foye, and Al Thornton.

The Wizards first inquired about Carter on Wednesday, initiating the brief Arenas for Carter talks. While the deal couldn't be completed until July, it could be consummated in coming days and may involve a third team."

Posted by: divi3 | June 26, 2010 5:37 PM | Report abuse

"Multiple sources say that the Magic have discussed a deal with the Washington Wizards that would swap Vince Carter for Kirk Hinrich, Randy Foye, and Al Thornton.

The Wizards first inquired about Carter on Wednesday, initiating the brief Arenas for Carter talks. While the deal couldn't be completed until July, it could be consummated in coming days and may involve a third team."

Posted by: divi3

That deal makes no sense for us. Spend the past couple of days talking about adding toughness and then trade for VC? And not even Gil for VC?

I'm not sure that deal makes a lot of sense for Orlando either. Not sure how Hinrich, Foye and AT help them compete for a title.

Posted by: ts35 | June 26, 2010 5:41 PM | Report abuse

"I'm not sure that deal makes a lot of sense for Orlando either. Not sure how Hinrich, Foye and AT help them compete for a title."

I can see how Hinrich helps them. The PG slot has always been a question mark for the Magic in terms of Nelson being good enough to win a title as lead guard. The fact that they got to the Finals without him then faltered in the Finals when he came back was telling. He had a good regular season this past one, and looked great in the early playoff rounds against less-than-impressive competition, but when he faced a real challenge in Rondo, his lack of size and inability to defend were really exposed. Hinrich could be an answer to some of that. Not saying he'd be the key to a title, but he'd provide something they need and don't have. Thornton and Foye would just be throw-ins on 1 -year deals.

As for Carter . . . the Wiz have no real use for him but he's in the last year of an only partially guaranteed deal, which would make him a very attractive trade asset for a team looking to clear some cap space.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 26, 2010 6:03 PM | Report abuse

Part of Jameer's problems in the playoffs were that aside from him and Howard, no one else was doing much. The other big problem was another dynamic scorer. None of the guys mentioned help with that. And if Carter is such a valuable asset, doesn't it make more sense to get more for him than the guys mentioned?

Like waiting to see if CP3 or another major player gets moved by a team looking for cap space.

Posted by: ts35 | June 26, 2010 6:16 PM | Report abuse

Those things were problems. What were also problems were Nelson's inability to defend Rondo and his trouble getting the team into its offense, in part because his small size made it difficult for him to see over the Celtics' aggressive defense.

As I said, Hinrich would not be a solution to all of their problems at PG, but he would address some of the ones that were fairly apparent.

As for the rest . . . are there better deals out there? Maybe. But that, in and of itself, doesn't inherently make this a bad deal.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 26, 2010 6:42 PM | Report abuse

Yeah, except that they don't have a lot of other avenues to solve their other equally apparent problems. Seems more like they're just swapping problems.

They got into trouble last year by trying to adjust their roster to compete against Cleveland and the Lakers.

The went 61-21 last year and made it to the EC Finals, I don't think there's any pressing need to jump into a deal now. Might as well wait until the FA dust settles and see what the landscape looks like.

From the Wizards side, it doesn't make sense to tout Hinrich as a player they've coveted and then move him the first chance they get for eventual cap space and a player who represents most of what they've spent the offseason purporting to be about now...youth, toughness, and character.

In the meantime, they're kind of obliged to play Carter as well. And now, aside from just Gil, the other 'old head' influencing Wall is Carter. It's a long way to go for cap space and hoping that you can turn Carter into other pieces.

Posted by: ts35 | June 26, 2010 7:05 PM | Report abuse

Sorry, meant to type 'player who doesn't represent'

Posted by: ts35 | June 26, 2010 7:08 PM | Report abuse

"From the Wizards side, it doesn't make sense to tout Hinrich as a player they've coveted and then move him the first chance they get for eventual cap space and a player who represents most of what they've spent the offseason purporting to be about now...youth, toughness, and character."

Well, I don't know they ever coveted him as much as they maintain. That trade was really about the draft pick, don't you think?

Posted by: Samson151 | June 26, 2010 7:22 PM | Report abuse

I don't think so. Because it was just about the pick, they would have done the Beasley deal. Half the salary for one pick down. And they could have ditched him after next year (team option). I think they obviously wanted the pick, but I think they wanted Hinrich too.

And that's even if you put aside the reports the Hinrich is a player EG has been interested in since he was drafted.

Posted by: ts35 | June 26, 2010 7:35 PM | Report abuse

THe more I look at it, the more I think it was about acquiring Hinrich. Seraphin is absurdly raw, it's a coin flip as to whether he ever amounts to anything....hard to believe they would pay $17mill for a coin flip.

Also some of the reaction in the Chicago papers is that the Zards could have held out and pushed the Bulls for more given Chicago was supremely desperate to finally move Hinrich. Not doing so may indicate how much EG wanted Hinrich on the roster

Posted by: divi3 | June 26, 2010 7:39 PM | Report abuse

THe more I look at it, the more I think it was about acquiring Hinrich. Seraphin is absurdly raw, it's a coin flip as to whether he ever amounts to anything....hard to believe they would pay $17mill for a coin flip.
Posted by: divi3

I think it was about both. I think EG saw a chance to get a player he likes while fulfilling his owner's requirement to get more draft picks.

'Absurdly raw'? Every pick in the draft is a coin flip. Not sure he's any more raw than JaVale was when they drafted him, he just brings a different profile.

Posted by: ts35 | June 26, 2010 7:51 PM | Report abuse


Also some of the reaction in the Chicago papers is that the Zards could have held out and pushed the Bulls for more given Chicago was supremely desperate to finally move Hinrich. Not doing so may indicate how much EG wanted Hinrich on the roster

Posted by: divi3

Or how badly he wanted Seraphin.

Posted by: and_1 | June 26, 2010 7:51 PM | Report abuse

"Yeah, except that they don't have a lot of other avenues to solve their other equally apparent problems."

If that's true, then wouldn't it behoove them to take whatever avenues they do have to solve whatever problems they can?

Seems more like they're just swapping problems."

If Carter had turned out to be the 3rd scorer they needed that might be true. But the fact is, he was mostly a disappointment. So swapping him for Hinrich would at least solve some of their problems, whereas Carter pretty much solved none.

"They got into trouble last year by trying to adjust their roster to compete against Cleveland and the Lakers."

And given that that didn't work, they'd seem to be obliged to make more adjustments (unless you think standing pat will yield better results next season).

"The went 61-21 last year and made it to the EC Finals, I don't think there's any pressing need to jump into a deal now."

I never said there was, did I? Where did I imply that the Magic should jump on this deal right away? I didn't. I simply said that I saw some advantages to the deal for Orlando. I never said there aren't better deals to be made. The two are not mutually exclusive.

"From the Wizards side, it doesn't make sense to tout Hinrich as a player they've coveted and then move him the first chance they get for eventual cap space and a player who represents most of what they've spent the offseason purporting to be about now...youth, toughness, and character."

As Samson said, there's no evidence that the Wizards "coveted" Hinrich (and very little "touting" that I've seen). They traded for him because they thought he (and the pick) would be an asset. If they think something else is a better asset, then so be it.

"In the meantime, they're kind of obliged to play Carter as well. And now, aside from just Gil, the other 'old head' influencing Wall is Carter. It's a long way to go for cap space and hoping that you can turn Carter into other pieces."

Not really. They'd basically be giving up a player whose primary value may have been as a means to acquire a draft pick they've already used and, in the process, getting out from under an extra year of salary and increasing their trade flexibility. Teams have gone a lot further in pursuit of cap space/flexibility.

No one said that this was the best deal ever. My only point was that there are, in fact, advantages to both teams in this deal, and claiming otherwise is inaccurate.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 26, 2010 7:52 PM | Report abuse

ESPN reported that Sacramento was willing to do the same deal.

Posted by: djnnnou | June 26, 2010 7:53 PM | Report abuse

ESPN reported that Sacramento was willing to do the same deal.

Posted by: djnnnou | June 26, 2010 7:53 PM

Kudos to Ernie for not dithering. When you have a chance to get "your guy" you get him.

Posted by: and_1 | June 26, 2010 7:58 PM | Report abuse

I think Ernie really wanted Seraphin, and were afraid that OKC at 18 would pick him. OKC did end up trading away their pick, so he may of been right.

Posted by: djnnnou | June 26, 2010 7:59 PM | Report abuse

I don't have a problem with the Hinrich deal except for the $'s owed him.
He's everything that the current Wizzies ain't...... Tuff defender, team player, smart, decent long range shot, makes the extra pass, if some of that rubs off on Wall and Nick he'll have been a bargain.

Posted by: VBFan | June 26, 2010 8:00 PM | Report abuse

'Absurdly raw'? Every pick in the draft is a coin flip. Not sure he's any more raw than JaVale was when they drafted him, he just brings a different profile.

Posted by: ts35 | June 26, 2010 7:51 PM

Which is exactly why you don't pay $17mill to draft Seraphin (or Javale or whomever) unless the vet you're getting is a player you really want. I'm not saying getting Seraphin wasnt high on EGs list, I'm saying acquiring Hinrich was higher.

Though I dont buy all the "mentor for Wall" talk, think it's more about EG believing he's a quality player and setting us up to move Gil in an instant (without creating a void in the backcourt) should the opportunity present itself .

Posted by: divi3 | June 26, 2010 8:02 PM | Report abuse

"Also some of the reaction in the Chicago papers is that the Zards could have held out and pushed the Bulls for more given Chicago was supremely desperate to finally move Hinrich. Not doing so may indicate how much EG wanted Hinrich on the roster"

Looking at the players the Bulls have under contract next season and assuming that certain ones were untouchable (Rose, Noah, Gibson), they really don't have any "more" to offer. (Although I'm sure they would have happily given up Deng and the 4 yrs/$51 mill he has left.)

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 26, 2010 8:03 PM | Report abuse

He could have pushed the Bulls for future picks, especially seeing as Ted keeps talking building through the draft.

Posted by: divi3 | June 26, 2010 8:05 PM | Report abuse

Kudos to Ernie for not dithering.

Exactly. Usually he just waits for the best available player. It's weird he's getting so much grief for being active.

Posted by: djnnnou | June 26, 2010 8:06 PM | Report abuse

He could have pushed the Bulls for future picks, especially seeing as Ted keeps talking building through the draft.

Posted by: divi3

Not if Sac was ready to accept the same deal Chi offered the Wiz. Sometimes you have to know when the negotiation's over.

Posted by: and_1 | June 26, 2010 8:09 PM | Report abuse

"He could have pushed the Bulls for future picks, especially seeing as Ted keeps talking building through the draft."

Posted by: divi3 | June 26, 2010 8:05 PM

For all we know he did and the Bulls said no. Or they placed restrictions on the picks that he didn't like. Or he figured that, if the Bulls went out and signed two max FAs this summer that their future picks might be less valuable to the Wizards than the cap space they'd be giving up to sign them. And so on . . .

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 26, 2010 8:12 PM | Report abuse

If that's true, then wouldn't it behoove them to take whatever avenues they do have to solve whatever problems they can?

And given that that didn't work, they'd seem to be obliged to make more adjustments (unless you think standing pat will yield better results next season).

Depends on your philosophy, I guess. If you think continually turning over significant pieces of your roster works better than developing continuity. Carter wasn't what they hoped he would be, but he was their second best scorer in the regular season and third best in the playoffs. His problem wasn't so much scoring as it was not being the playmaker that they hoped for. Hinrich may provide that, but you also have to hope he provides the scoring that you'll be losing.

Meanwhile, having him be a playmaker either means you run Nelson as an undersized 2, or he plays less, meaning you have to make up for his scoring as well. If he plays with Hinrich, who does he cover? The PGs you say he can't match up with, or the 2 guards he won't be able to match up with? If he sits, aside from having your second or third best player on the bench, who makes up for his production? Or are we trading him too?

And how does all of that affect the other big part of the Celtics/ Magic story, which was that Rashard Lewis played like crap? Or does he also get moved?

Carter is their most tradable big asset. So does it make sense to trade him for a guy you hope helps you, but causes other issues, or stand pat for now with a team that went to the EC Finals, or until an actual deal that solves more than just one of your problems comes about?

As Samson said, there's no evidence that the Wizards "coveted" Hinrich (and very little "touting" that I've seen). They traded for him because they thought he (and the pick) would be an asset.

Any evidence of that statement? I've read several articles talking about Hinrich being a player EG has been interested in since he was the GM of the Bucks. Haven't read any where they were hoping to turn him around as soon as possible. Don't have time to do it now, but I'll be happy to post the articles for you later.

They'd basically be giving up a player whose primary value may have been as a means to acquire a draft pick they've already used and, in the process, getting out from under an extra year of salary and increasing their trade flexibility. Teams have gone a lot further in pursuit of cap space/flexibility.

Lots of conditions in that statement. "Increasing their trade flexibility"? Any evidence of that? Samson has gone through pains over the past few days to detail the other deals that Hinrich was rumored to be a part of. And the Wiz would be getting cap flexibility they haven't demonstrated any intention of using.

In the meantime, you have an unhappy, not-going-to-the-playoffs VC sucking up minutes for a team that should be giving them to someone else.

Posted by: ts35 | June 26, 2010 8:41 PM | Report abuse

"ESPN reported that Sacramento was willing to do the same deal.Posted by: djnnnou"

I saw that too. Wonder why the Bulls sent Kirk and the pick to Washington?

Posted by: Samson151 | June 26, 2010 9:02 PM | Report abuse

"Samson has gone through pains over the past few days to detail the other deals that Hinrich was rumored to be a part of.posted by ts35"

LOL, well, that's over several seasons. Apparently Kirk has been on the block pretty much since his second year in Chicago. One of the news blogs there actually ran a feature on it: "Ten Best All-Time Rumors involving Kirk Hinrich Trades".

Luol Deng was the other player up for trade to free up cap space. Deng's no superstar but he is a versatile wing player with talent. I could see a team like Orlando or Dallas having some interest in him. The fear around the Bulls is that they'll free up all this cap space and wind up with just Rudy Gay or Joe Johnson -- in other words, not much better than they are now.

Derrick Rose is a wonderful player but he has limits as a point guard, not least of which is his difficulty hitting the outside shot (26.7% from 3 in the regular season). Same problem that Rajon Rondo and Tyreke Evans have -- those guys are even worse. By comparison, Hinrich hit a respectable 37%.

Off his college performance, Wall is actually a better outside shooter than the other three penetrators, but he's no Mike Miller (48%) either.

I can see the argument for picking a shooter like James Anderson in the draft, despite Anderson's other flaws.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 26, 2010 9:18 PM | Report abuse

Yet somehow I doubt we'll see Rondo, Evans, or Rose involved in a dozen trade scenarios that dont pan out due to the other GM not pulling the trigger.

Posted by: divi3 | June 26, 2010 10:23 PM | Report abuse

Just so we're clear on what we're talking about:

Kalorama said:

"As Samson said, there's no evidence that the Wizards "coveted" Hinrich (and very little "touting" that I've seen). They traded for him because they thought he (and the pick) would be an asset.

ts35 said:

Any evidence of that statement? I've read several articles talking about Hinrich being a player EG has been interested in since he was the GM of the Bucks. Haven't read any where they were hoping to turn him around as soon as possible. Don't have time to do it now, but I'll be happy to post the articles for you later."

Jesus f&^ing Christ, what a massive flaming strawman. I didn't say word one about them "hoping to turn him around as soon as possible." I said they traded for him because they thought he was an "asset." Last I checked, players who produce on the court are considered assets to their teams just as much (or more) as ones you acquire to trade.

(One of these days, just for kicks, try responding to what I actually said as opposed to your remixed version of it. Y'know, just for a change of pace.)

"Lots of conditions in that statement."

You should brush up on your rules of grammar. There wasn't a single "condition" (i.e., if/then) in that statement.

"Increasing their trade flexibility"? Any evidence of that?"

Yeah, common sense. An $18 mill contract that expires at the end of next season (prior to a new CBA in which the cap is likely to fall)(Carter) will be more attractive trade chip than one that has two more years left (Hinrich). Ergo, flipping Hinrich for Carter would increase their trade flexibility for the coming season. Would you like me to draw you a diagram?.

"Samson has gone through pains over the past few days to detail the other deals that Hinrich was rumored to be a part of."

And how many of those deals actually happened before the Wiz agreed to basically take him for nothing? That would be none.

"And the Wiz would be getting cap flexibility they haven't demonstrated any intention of using."

Says who? The only thing Leonsis has "demonstrated" is his disinterest in signing a big money FA this summer. That in no way precludes him from adding to the roster in other ways going forward, including lower level FA signings or trades. Acquiring Carter for Hinrich would facilitate that.

"In the meantime, you have an unhappy, not-going-to-the-playoffs VC sucking up minutes for a team that should be giving them to someone else."

Not if they trade him somewhere else before the season starts. (Or if, as the quoted article suggests, a third team is involved and Carter ends up going to that third team and the Wiz end up getting something else.)

Look, we get it. You think it's a bad deal. Fine. I'm not exactly doing cartheels over it. But just because you think it's the worst deal in history doesn't alter the fact that there are potential benefits for both teams.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 26, 2010 10:48 PM | Report abuse

"Luol Deng was the other player up for trade to free up cap space. Deng's no superstar but he is a versatile wing player with talent."

He also has 4 more years and $51 mill left on his contract. if they could have moved him he'd be gone by now.

"Off his college performance, Wall is actually a better outside shooter than the other three penetrators, but he's no Mike Miller (48%) either. "

Can't really go by that though, because the college 3 pt line is shorter than the NBA line.

Posted by: kalo_rama | June 26, 2010 11:05 PM | Report abuse

I have never in my lie heard so many moronic wanna be GM's comment on a team,KH sucks,KH is great, Gil needs to go, Gil is the greatest, good Lord what the hell are you people smoking? By every REAL PRO account the Wizards did a great job, outside of the stretch on the Frenchman who could by the way end up being the STEAL of the draftm we did great. I heard this same retareded negativity about the Nats, and guess what they are doing pretty damn good. Tell you what if you a-holes want to hate, then go, we are fans, now and always have been,remember the Unseld year,sat in the stands and got cursed by Boston fans as we went on to win a championship.Take your fair weather butts to LA,root for them,leave the true fans alone,forever,you don't care about this team you just want to be loud and important,well guess what your not. Later days find another team to hate on and get out!Sad so very sad

Posted by: mfowler1 | June 27, 2010 12:36 AM | Report abuse


Though I dont buy all the "mentor for Wall" talk, think it's more about EG believing he's a quality player and setting us up to move Gil in an instant (without creating a void in the backcourt) should the opportunity present itself .

Posted by: divi3 | June 26, 2010 8:02 PM

I hope you're right about Ernie preparing for Gil's departure. Gil belongs in New York with D'Antoni, playing his brand of one-dimensional basketball. Under D'Antoni, Gil doesn't have to change a bit on the court and when he takes those gawd-awful, quick shots and doesn't play defense, he'll actually be appluaded.

Posted by: 2020doc | June 27, 2010 12:51 AM | Report abuse

...applauded.

Posted by: 2020doc | June 27, 2010 12:52 AM | Report abuse

good Lord what the hell are you people smoking?

Posted by: mfowler1 | June 27, 2010 12:36 AM | Report abuse

Out here in San Diego we are smoking some really good medical marijuana...

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | June 27, 2010 4:23 AM | Report abuse

Since Melodious rushed to the board to kiss Ernie's ring, I felt obligate to at-least provide a counter argument.
http://www.sbnation.com/2010/6/25/1537229/dear-ted-leonsis-ernie-grunfeld-wizards

Posted by: closg | June 27, 2010 8:24 AM | Report abuse

"Isn't [Minnesota] the team that got five guards from the draft last year? On the one hand who he picks might be criticized, but on the other hand he is able to get those draft picks from other teams. While Ernie struggles?Posted by: rickgonz"

Apparently Kahn is committed to vigorous FA pursuit. He insists he's only ruled out 3 FAs. That leaves Amare, Joe J., Rudy, Dave Lee, Carlos...the usual suspects. According to the Strib, he's still committed to ridding the club of Al Jefferson, provided he can sign Darko Milicic and bring to the US one Nikola Pekovic, a 24 year old 6'10" Serb they drafted in '08. With Kevin Love, that'd be their big man core. Nemanja Bjelica, the 35 choice, is a SF.

You heard me -- their hopes apparently hinge on Darko.

The Martell Webster trade, which sent Luke Babbitt to Portland, seems to get the most discussion in the Cities. Both sides are claiming they got the better player.

The Rubio trade now looks like one of those transactions that benefits no one. Ricky will have missed two and possibly three full NBA seasons (he likes it in Barcelona) and still doesn't want to play in Minnesota. So it depends on what they can eventually get in trade. Backup plan Jonny Flynn is also being shopped because he's consistently overmatched on defense.

That's the latest gossip from the Frozen North, anyway.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 27, 2010 8:51 AM | Report abuse

"I hope you're right about Ernie preparing for Gil's departure. Gil belongs in New York with D'Antoni, playing his brand of one-dimensional basketball. Under D'Antoni, Gil doesn't have to change a bit on the court and when he takes those gawd-awful, quick shots and doesn't play defense, he'll actually be appluaded.Posted by: 2020doc"

Wouldn't that have to be one of those desperate situations where the Knicks failed to sign any quality FAs and had to settle for taking on Gil's monstrosity of a contract? Sounds like a long shot.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 27, 2010 8:56 AM | Report abuse

"Ernest Grunfeld can do his job with blindfold on and still crush 95% of the GMs in the league, folks."

Umm, no.

Anyone could have picked Wall first.

My mother who hates basketball could have picked Wall first.

Here's the thing, and if I were Ted I would be upset. EG took money out of Ted's pocket, gave it to Chicago, and in addition took on Hinrich (a player I happen to like FYI) and 9.5 mil for the next two years in cap space. Then they drafted someone @ 17 who is a "project" at best with no offensive game because he has long arms. They couldn't even trade this pick to move up more, and it's not official until July 8th.

THEN they take an undersized foward, again with long arms, after trading two picks for a guy that people said might have lasted until the second round anyway.

Ok, now tell me what is so great about that?

Wall is a no brainer, after that EG showed he doesn't have much "brain" anyway.

If nothing else, they have a future star and a guy off the ball who can play defense. In all of the time EG has been here not once has he drafted anyone of any consequence. Andray Blatche is his best draft choice, beyond that nobody. One player in how many years? He traded away picks last year for nothing this year and the Wiz acould have Tyreke Evans AND Dejuan Blair.

They should have drafted James Anderson and dump NY. I'll give props to Ernie for his trades, but his drafting is nothing short of unspectacular.

He's not going to be around for very much longer. Ted wants to build through the draft and EG plain sucks at it.

- Ray

Posted by: rmcazz | June 27, 2010 10:07 AM | Report abuse

I'm gonna go out on a limb (at the risk of pistoling some people off), but I'm predicting that Wall will be a very good, but not great player in the NBA. No doubt he has great physical tools, but what is his body of work? He was an elite recruit out of Raleigh and played one season at UK. He was on a team w/ 4 other first round draft choices and couldn't get past West Virginia in the NCAAs. With that type of talent, they should've run everyone off the court. I hope that Wall becomes the best PG in the league, but I don't think it's a slam dunk (pardon the pun). Magic, Alcindor/Jabbar, Walton, David Thompson, Olajuwon, Ewing, Bird, Jordan, 'Melo, Isaiah, Robinson, Durant, Elvin Hayes, etc. were able to elevate their teams at the collegiate level. Wall, considering the talent that he played w/, albeit just for 1 season, hasn't yet shown that he can do that.

Posted by: randysbailin | June 27, 2010 11:11 AM | Report abuse

"Then they drafted someone @ 17 who is a "project" at best with no offensive game because he has long arms. They couldn't even trade this pick to move up more, and it's not official until July 8th.
THEN they take an undersized foward, again with long arms, after trading two picks for a guy that people said might have lasted until the second round anyway."

"Ok, now tell me what is so great about that? posted by rmcazz"

Nothing, when you frame it like that. But there's a lot to dispute about the way you portray it.

I've never seen Seraphin play. There are a couple short clips on YouTube if someone wants to take a look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lHZveuKK5U&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9-gqYDpM_0

He's obviously raw, but two things I liked: first, that short hook shot. That trapezoidal lane makes it difficult to score in the low post (Tim Duncan just despises it) but Seraphin seems to have an answer. Second: I like the way he's always going forward. He puts his shoulder into people and attacks the basket. He'll pick up some fouls in the NBA but ultimately it will balance out.

We'll have to wait and see. Or at least I will.

Booker, as you say, was originally picked by the mocks a year ago as a first rounder, then began to drop with the Clemson team's fortunes as the season progressed. Then he became a fixture around the top of the second. I don't know how this process works, but I suspect it depends a lot on what other mocks are saying plus gossip on ESPN. Anyway, all of sudden he's a value at 35 and a reach at 23. Who's right? I don't see any basis for deciding at this point.

One thing I do know: we're going to lose a lot of games this season. And that would be true no matter who we drafted at 18 and 23.

I'm prepared for it. Are you?

Posted by: Samson151 | June 27, 2010 11:17 AM | Report abuse

"I'm gonna go out on a limb (at the risk of pistoling some people off), but I'm predicting that Wall will be a very good, but not great player in the NBA. No doubt he has great physical tools, but what is his body of work? He was an elite recruit out of Raleigh and played one season at UK. He was on a team w/ 4 other first round draft choices and couldn't get past West Virginia in the NCAAs. With that type of talent, they should've run everyone off the court. I hope that Wall becomes the best PG in the league, but I don't think it's a slam dunk (pardon the pun). Magic, Alcindor/Jabbar, Walton, David Thompson, Olajuwon, Ewing, Bird, Jordan, 'Melo, Isaiah, Robinson, Durant, Elvin Hayes, etc. were able to elevate their teams at the collegiate level. Wall, considering the talent that he played w/, albeit just for 1 season, hasn't yet shown that he can do that.Posted by: randysbailin"

I'm not 'pistoled off', but you're putting too much emphasis on that WVa game. Teams dominated by first-year players tend to run into problems in the tournament. Duke showed us how to beat the Mountaineers' zone in the next game: hit your threes. Do you doubt that if Wall and Cousins and the others came back next season, they might even run the table?

But you're right that we don't know how good Wall will be in the pros. No question he elevated his team in college, however. Didn't Olajawon's team eventually lose, as did Ewing's, and Elvin's, and Durant's Texas team? So did Walton's, and Bird's, and Michael Jordan's -- that's the NCAA tournament for ya.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 27, 2010 11:45 AM | Report abuse

One thing I do know: we're going to lose a lot of games this season. And that would be true no matter who we drafted at 18 and 23.

I'm prepared for it. Are you?

Posted by: Samson151

I'm OK with it as long as we compete like we did toward the end of the season. They were fun to watch after the All Star break. This is a year where the Wizzies could find a diamond. Hopefully we'll get a look at a lot of players and not confine them to the bench. If they get payed they should get played.

Posted by: VBFan | June 27, 2010 11:50 AM | Report abuse

Hopefully we'll get a look at a lot of players and not confine them to the bench.


Posted by: VBFan | June 27, 2010 11:50 AM | Report abuse

VBFan,

Then why trade for Hinrich?

After waching Flip last year and reading what he and Ernie said it looks like they are going to break in Wall really slow?

That's why I would have drafted James Anderson and let them both play from day one but we know Flip doesn't like playing younger guys and as soon as Wall makes a mistake he'll get benched like winning 2 more games are going to save Ernie and Flips jobs?

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | June 27, 2010 12:18 PM | Report abuse

""Here's the thing, and if I were Ted I would be upset. EG took money out of Ted's pocket, gave it to Chicago, and in addition took on Hinrich (a player I happen to like FYI) and 9.5 mil for the next two years in cap space.""

Did I miss something? In addition we took on Hinrich? Sounds like you're doing a little double-counting. It's not like we gave Chicago $17M in cash and have nothing but Seraphin to show for it. Hinrich is owed $17M over the next two years and (if the Wiz keep him) can help this team as he is in the prime of his career. He's not a washed-up, broken-down Tracy McGrady. Further, there's a possibility he and/or Gil will be moved in the coming days/weeks. I've seen reports that say Grunfeld is still receiving calls on Arenas' availability. Suffice it to say that NOBODY knows what Ernie has up his sleeves at this point and everything can't happen all at once to make things nice and tidy for us fans. Sheesh.

""Then they drafted someone @ 17 who is a "project" at best with no offensive game because he has long arms. They couldn't even trade this pick to move up more, and it's not official until July 8th.""

Kendrick Perkins, who some have compared Seraphin to, has no offensive game to speak of, but he's tough as nails and is a player that many teams would LOVE to have. The other player he's often compared to is Nene. If he turns out to be as good as either of those two, he was WELL worth the 17th pick.

""They should have drafted James Anderson and dump NY. I'll give props to Ernie for his trades, but his drafting is nothing short of unspectacular.""

Listen, I've bashed Ernie on this blog. A lot. But all of a sudden everybody's in love with James Anderson. I didn't see ANYBODY shilling for him prior to draft night the way you all are now. Just about everyone on here said that the Wiz needed to add bigs and toughness and you actually got what you were asking for. Who knew you were like the little kids who walk past a toy 50 times without even so much as looking at it and only want it when a sibling starts playing with it. But like I said-it is funny though.

Posted by: gimmedat | June 27, 2010 12:23 PM | Report abuse

I think Samson makes the one point a lot of folks seem to be missing - we are going to lose a lot of games this season.

The owner himself has accepted this as reality, you'd be a lot less stressed about a draft you don't (or can't possibly) understand if you were to do the same. Rome wasn't built overnight and you can't expect a rebuild of this magnitude will be done over one summer.

By nature, the draft is a "throw it against the wall and hope something sticks" crapshoot. It's about projection and if a guy who is being trusted (and paid handsomely) to make these decisions identifies the guys he thinks have a future with this team and aggressively pursues them - I'm okay with that. Projections are likely to change team-by-team and board-by-board. Sometimes, it's the intangible qualities that project a prospect as a fit in a particular system (in Booker's case it was his physical style of play and perceived toughness). Maybe someone at 25 isn't looking for the same intangibles. Maybe they already have an undersized PF on their roster and what they really need is a 7'4 guy with a 12 foot wingspan. Now, if they line up Booker and a player with those attributes and the stats are close, who are they going to take?

Had Minny already selected Booker before Ernie made the deal? Was there legitimate interest in Seraphin that suggested to EG he might not be there much longer? None of us know because none of us were in the draft room. None of us are connected. It's easy to second guess and bytch and moan from our keyboards when our own job security isn't dependent upon these decisions.

Anyone who doesn't realize we're a better team after draft day is either insane or so stuck on their own abilities as an armchair GM that they've actually deluded themselves into believing they could do a better job. I'm not a Grunfeld fan per se, but I understand the immense pressure these guys are under to make decisions that could impact the franchise long after they are gone. They do the best they can.

I'm not suggesting that everyone just drink the kool aid and keep it moving - part of the fun of being a fan is being able to be passionate about what's going on with your team. All I'm saying is that if you COULD do it you WOULD be doing it somewhere.

At the end of the day, none of us know what's going to happen with any of these players. Wall could be a bust, Seraphin could be the next big thing. As long as the due diligence was done and everyone in the organization is onboard with these guys being good fits - then I'm fine with that for now. It takes 12 players to make a gameday roster and if these guys can contribute and be anywhere among those 12 then you have to feel good about that. Trashing them before we even get to see what they bring to the table is immature and unfair.

We get all boosted about particular guys from mocks and youtube videos. Guess what guys, most of the mock writers are just like us - wannabe GMs who know little.

Posted by: bullets | June 27, 2010 12:24 PM | Report abuse

Here's the thing, and if I were Ted I would be upset. EG took money out of Ted's pocket, gave it to Chicago
Posted by: rmcazz

The official terms don't come out until the 8th, but my understanding was that cash actually came TO Washington. Unless you just mean the cash he has to pay to Hinrich

and in addition took on Hinrich (a player I happen to like FYI) and 9.5 mil for the next two years in cap space

$9M this year, $8M next year, not $9.5M per(according to hoopshype.com). Not a big diff for NBA salaries, but I'm just sayin'.

He traded away picks last year for nothing this year and the Wiz acould have Tyreke Evans AND Dejuan Blair.

Evans was gone before they would have picked.

They should have drafted James Anderson and dump NY. I'll give props to Ernie for his trades, but his drafting is nothing short of unspectacular.

He's not going to be around for very much longer. Ted wants to build through the draft and EG plain sucks at it.

I generally agree with this. Looking at it one way, EG's drafts, except for the Pech / Veer draft have been ok, with respect to where they were drafting and what was available. But overall, I haven't been thrilled with the types of players he brings in. This year has represented a departure from that. Whether that's Ernie or Ted or some combo of both, who knows?

EG *may* have ended up paying too much for Booker, but I feel like ultimately fans will grow to like him, if they accept his limitations (or if he exceeds them). The Seraphin pick seems to me to be the make or break for EG for this draft. If he holds his own, EG's ok. If he's the next Pech, EG will get grilled.

The two things I think that could mitigate that....1) if Wall fails to become a great player, or if Turner or Favors or Cousins blow up and Wall doesn't; or 2) if Hinrich plays above expectations. If either or both of those things happen, people will care a little less about the Seraphin pick.

Portland wants a GM to bring in FAs / vets, the Wiz need a GM who's stronger in the draft. Any chance of a Pritchard sign-and-trade deal for Ernie?

Posted by: ts35 | June 27, 2010 12:29 PM | Report abuse

"Portland wants a GM to bring in FAs / vets, the Wiz need a GM who's stronger in the draft. Any chance of a Pritchard sign-and-trade deal for Ernie?"

Best idea I've seen on these boards EVER. Well played ts35.

Posted by: bullets | June 27, 2010 12:32 PM | Report abuse


"Unless this is part of more moves I don't like this deal."

Hinrich is solid. Yes, for 9.5 mil that's a lot but not terrible, and he plays defense as good as anyone. When's the last time you could say that about a Wiz player? :)

Couple him with Wall, and if Gil is still here that's a nice rotation.

I do think there's something else down the pike though. Too many guards on the Wiz now. Hopefully they dump NY.

- Ray

Posted by: rmcazz | June 24, 2010 5:29 PM


On draft night, you thought Hinrich was a solid pickup. Why the sudden change of heart, Ray?

Posted by: 2020doc | June 27, 2010 12:59 PM | Report abuse

I'm happy with the Wizards' draft, and with Ted Leonsis' plan for how he wants to see the team built.

It seems to me that with the governing philosophy of drafting, developing and retaining players, taking Trevor Booker in the first round makes sense. The front office wanted him, and went out and got him. Booker has got to be thrilled and grateful to be a first round pick, and that is a pretty good start to a long term relationship.

Posted by: PostSubscriber | June 27, 2010 1:32 PM | Report abuse

Since Melodious rushed to the board to kiss Ernie's ring, I felt obligate to at-least provide a counter argument.

Useless Link


Posted by: closg | June 27, 2010 8:24 AM

The counterpoint to which you linked appears to come from a frustrated, wannabe armchair GM who thinks he should be given control of a team.

On the bright side, I guess the positive would be that if Seraphin has to play overseas for a couple years (and he won't) and Ndiaye has to play in the D-League, the Wizards will have elevated themselves to the coveted "Tier 1" status that you raved about the other day. No doubt about it, the Wizards would be among the model franchises in the NBA according to your argument.

You can't have it both ways, closg.

Posted by: melodious_thunk | June 27, 2010 1:38 PM | Report abuse

Since Melodious rushed to the board to kiss Ernie's ring, I felt obligate to at-least provide a counter argument.

Useless Link


Posted by: closg | June 27, 2010 8:24 AM

The counterpoint to which you linked appears to come from a frustrated, wannabe armchair GM who thinks he should be given control of a team.

On the bright side, I guess the positive would be that if Seraphin has to play overseas for a couple years (and he won't) and Ndiaye has to play in the D-League, the Wizards will have elevated themselves to the coveted "Tier 1" status that you raved about the other day. No doubt about it, the Wizards would be among the model franchises in the NBA according to your argument.

You can't have it both ways, closg.

Posted by: melodious_thunk | June 27, 2010 1:40 PM | Report abuse

I personaly gave this years trade activity of the wiz an A.I have reviewed all comments in this blog.There seems to be some sort of negative notion exist against EG.Some of us are not poing to say positive things on him even if he bring a superstar player.EG out smart Chicago by getting two players for free.KH is a real professinal for a rebuilding team.He is not going to affect our next year move interms of salary cup since he is movable by 2011-12 sdeason due to his expiring contract.EG did not even touch his trade exemption when he brought two players for free.Just because chicago increased its chance to sign a superstar ,i just can not say no to get 3,000million cash,KH and the 17th pick for a future second round pick.Washington already decleared that they are not going to be the players for the top 5 free agents of 2010.I am expecting EG to pick more role players to complete its roster by taking 2 to 3 years long bad contract if future 1st round pick is added.When you rebuild it is good to be permisive for others to use your money by deploying bad contract as long as they make it palatable by adding future picks.

Posted by: gtefferra | June 27, 2010 2:21 PM | Report abuse

Good Draft?
Bad Draft?
There isn't a team that can say 100% that they had a good draft today.
Maybe at the All Star break an evaluation could give a good indication.....maybe.
If Wall gets shot in the wrist while partying in Alexandria then it's a bad draft.
If he makes the All Star team then it's a good one.
No one can predict how a college player will translate into the NBA.
You can lessen the odds of failing but not eliminate them.
I'm being positive and looking forward to the development of this team. I think that many more moves are in the works. Hope no one on the team has a long term lease on their crib.

Posted by: VBFan | June 27, 2010 3:10 PM | Report abuse

2010 FIBA Americas U18 Championship for Men

Canada vs. Puerto Rico is streaming now. U.S. vs. Mexico is tonight if anyone wants to check out Austin Rivers(Doc's kid) and UW's Abdul Gaddy.

Posted by: djnnnou | June 27, 2010 3:32 PM | Report abuse

These players that come into the league as 'projects' rarely to never seem to work out. Also, a player who comes into the league w/ questionable work habits usually flames out as well. The stars of the league generally come in w/ serious game and are fanatical about improving: DWade, Kobe, Kevin Durant, Dwight Howard, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Isaiah are/were at the top of the league mainly because they work their arses off, but they also came into the league as legit star caliber players.

Posted by: randysbailin | June 27, 2010 3:33 PM | Report abuse

(One of these days, just for kicks, try responding to what I actually said as opposed to your

remixed version of it. Y'know, just for a change of pace.)

Ah Pot, thy name is Black.

You make a blanket statement:

"As Samson said, there's no evidence that the Wizards 'coveted' Hinrich"

And when I respond that there actually is some evidence, for example,

"President Ernie Grunfeld has long coveted Hinrich, a former all-defensive guard who has started on the 2006 World Championship team. The Wizards have attempted to acquire Hinrich in trades several times and Grunfeld wanted to take Hinrich in the 2003 NBA draft but had to settle for T.J. Ford when Hinrich went one spot ahead of Ford. "
-Michael Lee

you skip that part and just respond to the part you want to, where I hyperbolized your argument.

So, when confronted with facts that contradict your assertion, you just shift the argument to the opinion part. In fact, you go so far as to bold just the parts you want to respond to, while ignoring the pesky fact parts, and retreat to your familiar ground of attacking someone else for shifting the argument.

I mean, if I wanted to do that too, I could.

I would clip a bit of text and boldify it to just make sure

"just because you think it's the worst deal in history"

And then respond with something clever like

"Did I say that?? Jesus f&^ing Christ, what a massive flaming strawman!"

Posted by: ts35 | June 27, 2010 4:05 PM | Report abuse

But to get back to the argument....

Your take on why this benefits both clubs is essentially (and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong):
a) To the Wizards, Hinrich is an asset (as a player or trade piece) that they are willing to keep but will move for a better piece.
b) VC (or rather his contract) represents a better, more tradeable piece or at least salary space in '11/'12.
c) To the Magic, Hinrich represents a piece to help them get over the top

Whereas my argument is
1) To the Wizards, Hinrich represents a piece they have been interested in for a while and are less likely to move unless the payoff is good enough.
2) Since there has been and continues to be interest in Hinrich, he's not any less tradeable than VC.
3) VC would be a malcontent for a rebuilding Wizards team and would take away minutes from developing players.
4) To the Magic, using VC to acquire Hinrich causes as many issues as it solves.

Michael Lee's report (and others) tend to contradict your point (a) and support my point (1).

With (b)/(2) Your argument (stated in your post) that the reported trades Hinrich was involved in haven't happened before doesn't speak to why those trades didn't happen, so it really doesn't argue against Hinrich's tradeability. But the reports do indicate that there is at least continuing interest in him. Simultaenously you arguing that trading for him makes a contending team (Orlando) better, also tends to argue *for* his tradeability, especially since his cap number goes down. I'm not saying he's a better trade asset than VC, he's just not definitively worse. If he's as tradeable, then there's nothing that says they couldn't create the same cap space as VC's contract expiring.

(3) No proof of this on my side, except for VC's history of not playing well when not happy.

(c)/(4) Using Hinrich to get VC essentially cannibalizes two positions / talents (Carter and Nelson) to address one issue, but it also opens another issue and doesn't help with the other issues they had. At the same time, they're disrupting a team that blew through the first two rounds of the playoffs and lost 4-2 in the EC Finals, in which there was one blowout for each team, and 3 of the other 4 games were decided by 4 points or less. Hinrich might help, or the truth may be found in the Lakers / Celts series, that if Lewis and Carter had just shot a little better (Like Artest and others did in the last two games) then maybe it's a different story.

--

As is often the case in newspapers, you actually buried the lead. If there are other players / pieces coming from a third team, then it obviously has the potential to change the dynamic. But since there was nothing definitive reported, hard to comment on it.

Posted by: ts35 | June 27, 2010 4:07 PM | Report abuse

the Wizards will have elevated themselves to the coveted "Tier 1" status that you raved about the other day.

Posted by: melodious_thunk | June 27, 2010 1:40 PM | Report abuse

melodious_thunk

"Tier 1" teams have the luxury of stashing players overseas and drafting questionable players because they already have a roster full of players.

The Wizards (Ernie's team) can't because they need to find players who can contribute right away and play a position not someone who was a PF in college and Ernie believes he can move over and play another poistion against better players then he has ever played before?

In Ernie I trust will screw things up?

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | June 27, 2010 5:28 PM | Report abuse


OKC and Portland were drafting projects and overseas players when their respective rosters were awful and they were perrenial lottery teams.
I'm not crazy about Ernie, but it looks like the majority of NBA evaluators have given him high marks for this past draft. Maybe Kevin Pritchard or Sam Presti did their old friend a favor and told him whom to pick?

Posted by: omgwthrotfl | June 27, 2010 6:09 PM | Report abuse

Maybe getting Hinrich helped da Bulls get LBJ.

TWEET OF THE DAY: Think guys around the league aren't paying attention to FreeAgentMania? Here's what Sacramento's Jason Thompson offered Sunday afternoon: "Bron n Bosh to Chi Town. RuKIDDINME. wow" Thompson was reacting to rumors that James and Bosh had already decided to go to the Bulls, which if true would suggest violations of NBA tampering rules on many levels.

Posted by: VBFan | June 27, 2010 6:15 PM | Report abuse

"Maybe getting Hinrich helped da Bulls get LBJ."

That's the NY Times' guess. However they think the Bulls have to free up some additional cap space to have room for both.

Posted by: Samson151 | June 27, 2010 6:36 PM | Report abuse

I am an Ernie Grunfeld guy. When it comes to trading established Vets, I give him "thumbs up". I thought he did an excellent job of blowing up the squad last year.

But I find this years' draft puzzling.
So I went back through all Grunfeld's prior drafts. Starting from when he was named President/GM in NY.

From that time, through four years in Milwaukee and here in DC, he only had one standout draft class.

In 2000, Ernie traded 2 first round picks to Houston for the rights to Joel Pryzbilla and drafted Redd in the second round.

His next best draft actually looks like when he got Andray. The jury's still out on JaVale.

His scariest drafts? 1996 and 2002. He had 3 picks in the first round in '96. Ernie selected: John Wallace, Walter McCarty and Dontea Jones. While managing to miss on Big "Z" Ilgausksus.

In 2002, with 4 draft picks,(1 first and 3 second rounders) Ernie picked: Marcus Haislip, Dan Gadzuric, Flip Murray and Chris Owens. While missing on Tayshaun Prince, Matt Barnes, John Salmons, Luis Scola and Carlos Boozer.

Just as bad was the draft of 2006. OPech and the never to be seen Veremeeko were selected over Rondo, Kyle Lowry and Leon Powe.

The 2007 draft class of Nick Young and MacGuire, could have offered some combination of: Rudy Fernandez, Aaron Brooks, Carl Landry, Marc Gasol and Big Baby Davis.

The rest of the drafts were either washes,(non productive players drafted in front of other non productive players) or trades for vets, i.e. #5 for Jamison and #5 for Miller and Foye.)

I only focused on drafted rookies.

I don't know, maybe this draft will turn out to be better than 2000. John Wall is the can't miss pick right?

I admit to knowing nothing about evaluating NBA talent, but it just seems that on a team with only 2 players over 6'8" under contract, I would want to draft at least one finished product out of the college ranks big enough to push and shove with Lee, Bogut, Howard and the rest...

Just one big that not described as...raw.

Posted by: bozomoeman | June 27, 2010 6:39 PM | Report abuse

The past couple of years, EG makes the horrendous moves of signing mediocre players to long term lucrative contracts and spends considerable time trying to move them at the deadline literally functioning from a substantial position of weakness. He succeeds in moving them, create considerable cap flexibility to only turn back and spend half of it on...... Hinrich????? The very same Hinrich that Chicago, a couple of years after realizing it was a huge signing mistake (ala EG), have been aggressively trying to move him with no success.
There was very little way EG could have managed to marginalize a draft where he had a potential game changer on his lap at the # 1 pick and EG managed to rain on his own parade.
And it's appalling that many on here are applauding the moves. This isn't a hit on Hinrich particularly, because he is a decent player, but at $ 17 millions the next 2 years??? After you struggled so much and operated from a position of weakness trying to move the similar mistakes you signed???
Needless to say that in the process, you may become a despised team (thus negatively impacting future trades) by potentially helping a Chicago team building a dynasty. And.... OKC, in a very similar deal (obtaining 1 lower pick) only managed to absorb a 1-year $3 million deal??
Only someone like Kalo or Melodious would somehow debate that EG made great moves just like he argued this time last year that getting Miller/Foye for the 5th pick would be a splashing success.
Oh wait, in a few months, they will be talking about hindsight.

Posted by: Utilityman1 | June 27, 2010 6:58 PM | Report abuse

The Wizards won't be ready to get a big free agent until well after Hinrich's contract is up anyway. Leonsis has said he's not dipping his toes into the free agent waters any time soon and he means it. Who would you rather have teaching your newly minted PG how to prepare and play the right way - Arenas or Hinrich? I don't care how good Wall is, he's going to need veteran leadership on and off the court when he goes through rough patches this upcoming season.

Posted by: and_1 | June 27, 2010 7:40 PM | Report abuse

Just because you have money in your pocket doesn't mean you have to spend it.

Posted by: Utilityman1 | June 27, 2010 7:44 PM | Report abuse

Ted already proved that by turning his back to free agency for now. Well done, Ted!

Posted by: and_1 | June 27, 2010 8:09 PM | Report abuse

"I'll have to give Ernie a call; has he lost his mind?" said Dave Checketts, the former Garden and Knicks president.

Posted by: Utilityman1 | June 27, 2010 8:39 PM | Report abuse

Ted already proved that by turning his back to free agency for now. Well done, Ted!

Posted by: and_1 | June 27, 2010 8:09 PM | Report abuse

He actually didn't turn his back on FA, at least not directly. He already spent half the available cap space on a 6'3 tweener that Chicago has been trying to unload for 3 years.

Posted by: Utilityman1 | June 27, 2010 8:43 PM | Report abuse

Makes sense from Chicago's standpoint.
A good PG (Hinrich) becomes expendable when you get a great one (Rose). Don't hate Ted for sticking to his plan to the letter.

Posted by: and_1 | June 27, 2010 8:50 PM | Report abuse

I've reviewed EG's draft day moves since he arrived in Washington and it's unimpressive at best. If one more person gives him credit for drafting Wall, I'm gonna lose my cookies. Grunfeld's dog could've drafted Wall.

Posted by: randysbailin | June 27, 2010 9:36 PM | Report abuse

I admit to knowing nothing about evaluating NBA talent, but it just seems that on a team with only 2 players over 6'8" under contract, I would want to draft at least one finished product out of the college ranks big enough to push and shove with Lee, Bogut, Howard and the rest...

Just one big that not described as...raw.

Posted by: bozomoeman

I don't disagree with most of what you're saying -- though I don't usually fault GMs for 'missing' on second rounders, because there's often other considerations than just talent.

My question though on this last point is who do you feel like they should have drafted instead of Seraphin / Booker who fits the description you just mentioned?

Posted by: ts35 | June 27, 2010 9:42 PM | Report abuse

I like the kid!! He seems to be saying all the right things and thanking everyone around him for his success.

I'm a fan!!!

Posted by: Burg_gold_blood | June 28, 2010 9:00 AM | Report abuse

good draft, duno why people are complaining about the hinrich deal he has like 1 yr left on his contract so he will come off the books. Not a bad backup PG if u ask me plus we signing Josh Childress who is a solid soild 15ppg Small Forward

Posted by: JaY080 | June 28, 2010 1:15 PM | Report abuse

Post a Comment

We encourage users to analyze, comment on and even challenge washingtonpost.com's articles, blogs, reviews and multimedia features.

User reviews and comments that include profanity or personal attacks or other inappropriate comments or material will be removed from the site. Additionally, entries that are unsigned or contain "signatures" by someone other than the actual author will be removed. Finally, we will take steps to block users who violate any of our posting standards, terms of use or privacy policies or any other policies governing this site. Please review the full rules governing commentaries and discussions.




characters remaining

 
 
RSS Feed
Subscribe to The Post

© 2010 The Washington Post Company