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Juwan Howard signs with Miami -- and gets to stay


Oh yeah. Just give me 14 years. (AFP Photo/Roberto Schmidt)


It took 14 years, 7 teams, 2 repeat pit stops, 4 trades, 3 free agent signings, 1 buyout and 1 outright release, but Juwan Howard has finally found his way back to Miami. The union brings full circle the most agonizing, controversial and arguably disastrous contract situation in the history of Washington's basketball franchise.

As one of the centerpieces of the great free agent bonanza of 1996 - when Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal and Alonzo Mourning were among the huge names on the market - Howard has become a part of the most heralded frenzy since, as he joins forces with the SuperFriends (LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh) who bucked tradition, decided not to battle each other and formed an all-star, $300-plus million alliance.

Howard signed a one-year deal for the league minimum -- or approximately 1 percent of the first gigantic contract deal he signed with Pat Riley and the Heat. This time, there is no outrage or any threats to prohibit its consummation.

On July 13, 1996, Howard signed a seven-year, $100.8 million contract with Miami that set off red flags in the NBA office and put the Bullets in panic mode. The Bullets were blasted and lambasted for offering just $84 million to the 23-year-old all-star forward and letting him depart. The Heat, of course, celebrated the formation of a possible Eastern Conference power with the tandem of Howard and Mourning serving as the cornerstones.


Finally! Too bad that I couldn't join the Heat until I couldn't do this anymore. (Photo by Colin Braley/Reuters)

Four days after signing the deal, Howard donned a Heat cap and he and Riley spoke about a promising future. But two weeks later, the NBA voided the deal, claiming that the Heat violated the rules of the league's salary cap by reaching an agreement first with Mourning -- for seven years and $112 million -- and by failing to count nearly $2.5 million in bonuses in the contracts of P.J. Brown and Tim Hardaway. Howard returned to Washington, signing a seven-year, $105 million contract, with then-General Manager Wes Unseld proudly stating at the news conference, "He's baaaaaack."

But it wasn't long before the Wizards were wondering what all the fuss was about. Howard and Chris Webber helped lead the Wizards to the playoffs in 1997, but they never made a return trip with him on the roster and Howard never made another all-star team. When Webber fell out of favor with the late Abe Pollin and was traded, Howard proved unfit to carry a franchise by his lonesome.

The contract would later become an albatross on the franchise as Howard's salary increased with decreased productivity. Michael Jordan dumped Howard on Dallas in 2001 and Howard went on to have a career has a journeyman, bouncing from Dallas to Denver to Orlando to Houston, then Minnesota, back to Dallas, back to Denver, on to Charlotte and finally, to Portland.

Howard, 37, can now chase down an elusive championship ring or possibly experience some kind of postseason success. In 16 seasons, Howard has only appeared in 29 playoff games and has been out of the first round once. As Howard stated on the day he returned to Washington, "Things happen in mysterious ways."

By Michael Lee  |  July 21, 2010; 8:00 AM ET
 
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Comments

Maybe since Howard was a 5th pick in the draft, Abe told Ernie never to use another 5th again?

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | July 21, 2010 8:43 AM | Report abuse

The dawn of the Ernest Grunfeld Era signals that the days of the Washington Wizards paying top dollar for less-than-superstar caliber players are over.

Sometimes the best move a GM can make is to simply say "Thanks for the memories. We wish you well in your future endeavors." Ernest knows this.

Ernest Grunfeld's uncommon restraint during free agency this year has positioned us well for the future, despite the misinformed, myopic bleating of the tin ear haters. The Wizards are only in the beginning stages of their rebuilding efforts, but always remember this--a true audiophile can recognize a masterpiece even when presented with only the first few bars!

Success is closer than you think.

In Grunfeld We Trust!!

Posted by: melodious_thunk | July 21, 2010 9:14 AM | Report abuse

Good for Juwan, for all the grief he's gotten truth is he's a pro's pro who is still in the league all these years later. Maybe he'll go out in style.

That said, certainly hope the Heat fail spectacularly.

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 9:23 AM | Report abuse

m-thunk

Yes, I agree. Seems like he took moderate gambles at the expense of teams loading up for the LeBron sweepstakes. Funny thing is, those teams, Chicago and Jersey, got played by LeBron as he was destined for Miami alllllll along.

As we don't know what the new CBA will be like, the Wiz could be in a good position.

Posted by: G-Man11 | July 21, 2010 9:26 AM | Report abuse

The Howard episode in the summer in the summer of 1996 was one of the most shocking scenes witnessed in sports in this area. Carnival Barker/House Shill Susan O'Malley lived up to her reputation of never passing up an opportunity to turn any event into a disengenuous marketing ploy and staged some sort of bizarre demonstraion outside Peter Falk's office while contract negotiations were going on with the Bullets and Howard.

That woman was very good at getting herself into the spotlight and receiving credit for all sorts of progressive marketing ideas, but at the end of the day she was a disengenuous shill who did more to cast the Bullets/Wizards into the perception of being a small-time mom-and-pop operation that hopefully it will cease being under the leadership of a man who truly understands how to succeed in the business of sports.

Posted by: lgm6986 | July 21, 2010 9:29 AM | Report abuse

Wow - is the "Dream Team" in Miami this desperate? I thought they were charismatic enough to bring quality free agents to Miami at cut-rate prices.

Guess not.

Lebron was 100% correct when he said in Miami "We're not going to win 1 title...we're not going to win 2...we're not going to win 3..." They're not going to win 1 title.

Posted by: kemp13 | July 21, 2010 9:38 AM | Report abuse

The trading of Howard brought much flexibility to the Wizards were there was hardly any at all. A move that those who like to vilify Jordan and crucify him as manager, but give him no credit at all for executing it.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | July 21, 2010 9:40 AM | Report abuse

"Funny thing is, those teams, Chicago and Jersey, got played by LeBron as he was destined for Miami alllllll along."

Chicago looks dangerous to me. Boozer/Noah are exactly the type of combo that could be Miami's Achilles heel. Though I suppose the Bulls could have kept Hinrich and still signed Boozer

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 9:50 AM | Report abuse

Interesting, I wonder what MJ and Majic think about the new "Dream Team" ?

Posted by: millineumman | July 21, 2010 9:55 AM | Report abuse

div3,

I agree with you. Juwan, has been a good player and teammate just not a franchise player.

First Bullets fans blasted Abe for being cheap for not giving Howard a max deal. Then they booed Juwan for not living up to the same contract they demanded Abe give him!

Posted by: bozomoeman | July 21, 2010 9:56 AM | Report abuse

Will Howard be getting the luxurious perks this time around like he demanded and received under the 1996 deal? His contract with the Heat provided Howard with luxury hotel suites on road trips, and a limosine he would take to arenas instead of the team bus the other "lesser" players would take.

What a guy.

Posted by: disgruntledfan | July 21, 2010 9:59 AM | Report abuse

Wow - is the "Dream Team" in Miami this desperate? I thought they were charismatic enough to bring quality free agents to Miami at cut-rate prices.

Guess not.

Lebron was 100% correct when he said in Miami "We're not going to win 1 title...we're not going to win 2...we're not going to win 3..." They're not going to win 1 title.

Posted by: kemp13 | July 21, 2010 9:38 AM

If you really read and evaluate your statement can you really come back with the conclusion that there is some truth in it???

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | July 21, 2010 10:02 AM | Report abuse

"Posted by: disgruntledfan | July 21, 2010 9:59 AM "

Part of that might have been the Heat making sure the Bullets wouldn't try to match the contract, given Pollin's known...uh...frugality at that time. In fairness to Abe, he cracked that wallet open a lot wider over the last 10-15 years of his ownership.

Posted by: artiesliver | July 21, 2010 10:06 AM | Report abuse

"Posted by: kemp13 | July 21, 2010 9:38 AM"

Well, you've gotta win one title before you can we win more than one. I chalk that up to LeBron not going to college for at least one semester (*wink*).

Posted by: artiesliver | July 21, 2010 10:09 AM | Report abuse

Who is next for the Heat; Jerry Stackhouse??

Posted by: fearturtle44 | July 21, 2010 10:16 AM | Report abuse

Ernest Grunfeld's uncommon restraint during free agency this year has positioned us well for the future, despite the misinformed, myopic bleating of the tin ear haters. The Wizards are only in the beginning stages of their rebuilding efforts, but always remember this--a true audiophile can recognize a masterpiece even when presented with only the first few bars!


Posted by: melodious_thunk | July 21, 2010 9:14 AM

True audiophiles also know when a song is so bad only a garage band could love it. It's too early to call this ditty one way or the other, thunk, but to state the obvious, Wall is a keeper.

Posted by: artiesliver | July 21, 2010 10:17 AM | Report abuse

Part of that might have been the Heat making sure the Bullets wouldn't try to match the contract, given Pollin's known...uh...frugality at that time. In fairness to Abe, he cracked that wallet open a lot wider over the last 10-15 years of his ownership.

Posted by: artiesliver | July 21, 2010 10:06 AM

Riley was the Man then and he still is now. You can imagine Wes setting his alarm "early" for the start of free agency, getting on the rotary phone at 8:45am. Meanwhile Riley is knocking on Juwan's door at 12:01am, signed sealed delivered before Boulez know what happened.

The article about how Lebron ended up in Miami really speaks to just how big a deal Riley still is

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 10:19 AM | Report abuse

Chicago looks dangerous to me. Boozer/Noah are exactly the type of combo that could be Miami's Achilles heel. Though I suppose the Bulls could have kept Hinrich and still signed Boozer

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 9:50 AM

Yes, they probably could have kept Hinrich and still signed Boozer. Just goes to show that teams mostly don't realize what real building is.

It is kinda like the Wizards after we made the deal for Hinrich for all the reasons we thought would build our team and then we did not make an effort to resign Livingston because we thought supposedly that Hinrich made Livingston expendable.

Coach K said when asked about having Wade, Bron, and Bosh together might be a problem.

He kinda laughed and said that would be a good problem and that they would not have any problems playing together at all.

So true.

It is so funny that some are of the opinion that too much of a good thing is bad in basketball. Like too good first rate point guards like Livingston backing up Wall would not have been a good thing.

And those of you that think Hinrich will be running point behind Wall is a good thing, think again, we will see.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | July 21, 2010 10:23 AM | Report abuse

You can imagine Wes setting his alarm "early" for the start of free agency, getting on the rotary phone at 8:45am. Meanwhile Riley is knocking on Juwan's door at 12:01am, signed sealed delivered before Boulez know what happened.

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 10:19 AM

lol!!

Posted by: artiesliver | July 21, 2010 10:24 AM | Report abuse

"Funny thing is, those teams, Chicago and Jersey, got played by LeBron as he was destined for Miami alllllll along."

Chicago looks dangerous to me. Boozer/Noah are exactly the type of combo that could be Miami's Achilles heel. Though I suppose the Bulls could have kept Hinrich and still signed Boozer

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 9:50 AM | Report abuse
funny how no one talks about collusion with Boozer Korver and Brewer. Chi-Town just lifted 3 of Utah's top 7 in one summer.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 10:25 AM | Report abuse

"Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | July 21, 2010 10:23 AM"

Larry, you keep saying the Wiz made no effort to re-sign Livingston. Do you know that? For all we know, the Wiz could have offered him more money than Charlotte did.

Posted by: artiesliver | July 21, 2010 10:29 AM | Report abuse

"Interesting, I wonder what MJ and Majic think about the new "Dream Team" ?"

MJ said we never would've called Bird or Magic and said, "you guys want to play together?"

Now, to compare Magic and Bird to Bosh and LeBron is laughable. Those two were saviors and the other two ARE YANKEES

Posted by: BurgwithaU | July 21, 2010 10:29 AM | Report abuse

Like too good first rate point guards like Livingston backing up Wall would not have been a good thing.

And those of you that think Hinrich will be running point behind Wall is a good thing, think again, we will see.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | July 21, 2010 10:23 AM | Report abuse

Shaun Livingston is a first rate PG now? To be clear, he wan't a first rate PG BEFORE his injury. Every team in the league passed on him last year before OKC gave him a shot, then cut him. The wiz gave him a chance and he made the best of his opportunity. At season's end he showed NO indications of wanting to come back, and said he didn't feel like he owed the Wiz anything, for giving him another shot to show he was healthy and could still play. That's "First Rate"? Hinrich will be better for us this year IMHO. One wrong move and that knee snaps like a chicken wing.........for the third time. One guard with knee issues is enough.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 10:33 AM | Report abuse

take what mj said about lebron's move with a grain a salt.

1) mj was miserable his first few seasons in chicago with all the losing and if presented with unrestricted free agency might have bolted.

2) mj wants to be known as the best that ever walked the planet and to do that he feels a preemptive strike is in order, imo. the sad part is even lebron had won seven titles in cleveland, most of us would still say mj is the best ever.

3) that 8 year contract mj signed early in his career makes the point moot. we'll never know for sure.

Posted by: omgwthrotfl | July 21, 2010 10:40 AM | Report abuse

the unspoken value in Hinrich (imho) is he allows for the trading of Gil at the drop of hat. No matter what EG/Ted say publicly, you gotta think they want to be in position to pull the trigger on a suitable deal at anytime over next 2yrs.

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 10:41 AM | Report abuse

...grain of salt.

Posted by: omgwthrotfl | July 21, 2010 10:41 AM | Report abuse

"Interesting, I wonder what MJ and Majic think about the new "Dream Team" ?"

MJ said we never would've called Bird or Magic and said, "you guys want to play together?"

Now, to compare Magic and Bird to Bosh and LeBron is laughable. Those two were saviors and the other two ARE YANKEES

Posted by: BurgwithaU | July 21, 2010 10:29 AM | Report abuse

I didn't like that. It's like my GrandFather saying " I wouldn't have blogged all day at work when i was your age" we yeah, you literally wouldn't have because you couldn't have. there are so many differences in the game,the league, free agency and so on. I doubt that Mike woulda been able to pul it off if he wanted to. him saying he wouldn't have done something, that there is no evidence to support him even being capable of doing just speaks to my man MJs Hubris. Magic and larry were older than Mike, not the same draft class. He may have been chomping at the bit to tear those guys apart while he was at UNC and they were winning NBA 'chips. Magic was drafted in 79, Larry 78 and Mike 84. There was little choice for them but to be adversarial. Mike also sounds like he's taking a shot at a division rival (he does own the Bobcats); a division rival that they seemed poised to overtake. Now; at least on paper, it looks like the cats are sliding back to third in the division with the potential for fourth.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 10:44 AM | Report abuse

take what mj said about lebron's move with a grain a salt.

1) mj was miserable his first few seasons in chicago with all the losing and if presented with unrestricted free agency might have bolted.

2) mj wants to be known as the best that ever walked the planet and to do that he feels a preemptive strike is in order, imo. the sad part is even lebron had won seven titles in cleveland, most of us would still say mj is the best ever.

3) that 8 year contract mj signed early in his career makes the point moot. we'll never know for sure.

Posted by: omgwthrotfl | July 21, 2010 10:40 AM | Report abuse

i'm with you cuz! great points not as "rambly"

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 10:46 AM | Report abuse

Gosh! I feel old. I remember them when they were in Michigan, when I was in high school. I rooted for Howard and Webber during back in the day.

Posted by: mugengsr1 | July 21, 2010 10:46 AM | Report abuse

Magic said (yesterday?) he spent summers trying to figure out how to beat Larry not team up with him. In Magic's case, he isnt jealous of the $100mill deals available either, Earvin's done better than great for himself financially. Was just a different era, less choices for players equaled fiercer competition in every sport.

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 10:47 AM | Report abuse

how bout juwan being the last of the Fab Five Mohicans. he wasn't more talented than Webb or Jalen, but he's hung around at least 5 yrs longer than both of them.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 10:48 AM | Report abuse

"2) mj wants to be known as the best that ever walked the planet and to do that he feels a preemptive strike is in order, imo. the sad part is even lebron had won seven titles in cleveland, most of us would still say mj is the best ever."

Lebron will never be MJ, not on what he does with the Heat anyway. That's for certain. The fact that MJ didnt have a choice and may have done things differently doesnt change that.

IMO, if Lebron had stayed in Cleveland and turned Hickson into his Pippen while winning a bunch of rings...he would have been hailed as best ever

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 10:51 AM | Report abuse

No matter what EG/Ted say publicly, you gotta think they want to be in position to pull the trigger on a suitable deal at anytime over next 2yrs.

Posted by: divi3

How much does Hinrich make a year? Why is he so much more valuable than Arenas? He could be traded too.

The main reason Ernie (IMHO)took on Hinrich's salary is for the draft pick. He said before the draft, that he was looking to add another 1st round pick. He did, and the trade had nothing to do with Arenas.

Posted by: G-Man11 | July 21, 2010 10:52 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 10:48 AM

yeah, it's cool to see CWebb and Jalen as analysts talking about him on the floor. You can hear in their voices a bit of "god daaaamn, juwan still ballin!"

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 10:53 AM | Report abuse

Magic said (yesterday?) he spent summers trying to figure out how to beat Larry not team up with him. In Magic's case, he isnt jealous of the $100mill deals available either, Earvin's done better than great for himself financially. Was just a different era, less choices for players equaled fiercer competition in every sport.

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 10:47 AM | Report abuse

I think Magic and Larry were rivals in college and then drafted into one of the most storied rivalries in sports. There was no chance Magic was going east or Bird out west. BTW why would Magic want larry when he had Big Game James and Kareem? showtime was winnin 'Chips. In fact Magic won a chip his rookie yr right? I doubt he would feel motivated to team up with outside guys to win a chip when he's on a championship squad I'm Just Sayin

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 10:54 AM | Report abuse

Lebron will never be MJ, not on what he does with the Heat anyway. That's for certain. The fact that MJ didnt have a choice and may have done things differently doesnt change that.

IMO, if Lebron had stayed in Cleveland and turned Hickson into his Pippen while winning a bunch of rings...he would have been hailed as best ever

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 10:51 AM | Report abuse

Pippen was the NBA's MVP the year mike left and a top 50 all time player. If you see that in Hickson, fine. But i doubt he's a top 50 player in the NBA this season, let alon league history. People forget how truly great PIP was.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 10:57 AM | Report abuse

How much does Hinrich make a year? Why is he so much more valuable than Arenas? He could be traded too.

The main reason Ernie (IMHO)took on Hinrich's salary is for the draft pick. He said before the draft, that he was looking to add another 1st round pick. He did, and the trade had nothing to do with Arenas.

Posted by: G-Man11 | July 21, 2010 10:52 AM

Nobody wants Hinrich at $9mill/yr, he's been on the block for like 3yrs and only EG bit. Of course supposedly he's an asset as an expiring after next season, but who knows if expiring will still be valuable under the new collective bargaining agreement.

But yes, it doesnt have to be one or the other and I wasnt saying trading Gil was the only reason we signed Hinrich. Just that it allows for pulling the trigger on a Gil deal without destabilizing the backcourt

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 10:57 AM | Report abuse

Pippen was the NBA's MVP the year mike left and a top 50 all time player. If you see that in Hickson, fine. But i doubt he's a top 50 player in the NBA this season, let alon league history. People forget how truly great PIP was.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 10:57 AM | Report abuse

'scuse me 3rd in MVP voting, did win allstar MVP (not even close to the same thing) and was 1st team all NBA.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 10:58 AM | Report abuse

People forget how truly great PIP was.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 10:57 AM

I certainly dont.

Just sayin, Hickson is 21 and looks like the sky is the limit for what he could become especially had Lebron been his teammate.

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 11:01 AM | Report abuse

If John Nash had signed Juwan to the market contract he wanted (and deserved by the way) from the start there never would have been any drama in 1996.

Howard would have been locked up for 4 years on a reasonable deal instead of the one he eventually got.

Nash was a pretty bad GM. He certainly ranks behind Bobby Ferry and Ernie IMO.

Posted by: elfreako | July 21, 2010 11:01 AM | Report abuse

I thought he was the best player in the league that year.

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 11:04 AM | Report abuse

IMO, if Lebron had stayed in Cleveland and turned Hickson into his Pippen while winning a bunch of rings...he would have been hailed as best ever

Posted by: divi3

by whom? i doubt many, if any, fans who saw mj's entire career would argue that lebron's the best ever based on what they saw from lebron in cleveland (even putting championships aside). mj was money in crunch time. i know it's an apples/oranges comparison since michael's supporting cast was better, but mj was electrifying. i submit to you that perhaps i'm just a bitter, old geezer.

Posted by: omgwthrotfl | July 21, 2010 11:04 AM | Report abuse

take what mj said about lebron's move with a grain a salt.

1) mj was miserable his first few seasons in chicago with all the losing and if presented with unrestricted free agency might have bolted.

2) mj wants to be known as the best that ever walked the planet and to do that he feels a preemptive strike is in order, imo. the sad part is even lebron had won seven titles in cleveland, most of us would still say mj is the best ever.

3) that 8 year contract mj signed early in his career makes the point moot. we'll never know for sure.

Posted by: omgwthrotfl | July 21, 2010 10:40 AM | Report abuse


1) LeBron didn't leave a losing situation. He left the team with the best record in the league...two years in a row. Now we know he pretty much never planned on coming back. How many years did MJ play before he won a title? LeBron? Okay then.

2)LeBron has no chance to be the greatest now. Even if Miami wins 10 consecutive titles.

Personally, I take MJ because he won in a era of real basketball...not this crap now. LeBron would not have been as successful with his current skill set in the 80s and 90s.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | July 21, 2010 11:05 AM | Report abuse

I certainly dont.

Just sayin, Hickson is 21 and looks like the sky is the limit for what he could become especially had Lebron been his teammate.

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 11:01 AM | Report abuse

HoGrant.........maybe, but PIP was the second best player in the game when Mike was in Chicago and they went on 2 3peats. Hickson is talented, but i can't imagine Mike standing by idly as Phil completely freezes PIP out of the playoffs. How bout Krause trades a first rounder mid season to get Dennis Scott and bump Sottie to the bench. Once again TOP 50 player in NBA HISTORY. Hickson ain't that good.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 11:05 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: elfreako | July 21, 2010 11:01 AM

abe was the culprit on the howard contract. he was hell-bent on singlehandedly bringing rookie contracts back to earth. instead he ultimately signed howard to a contract out of this universe.

Posted by: omgwthrotfl | July 21, 2010 11:08 AM | Report abuse

Personally, I take MJ because he won in a era of real basketball...not this crap now. LeBron would not have been as successful with his current skill set in the 80s and 90s.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | July 21, 2010 11:05 AM | Report abuse

They'da made him play PF or C back then. that's why the comparison is unfair. Zeke would eat all these "Pure Point Guard" guys cookies back in the day of the hand check. Guys like Rambis,Laimbeer and Oakley would let kids like McGee know exactly what the game is about. I do however think that Lebron woulda been able to handle the physical play better than...let's say everybody's new sweetheart Tha Durantula.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 11:10 AM | Report abuse

Keep beating that Livingston drum Larry (even in response to a post about Juwan Howard). Just don't beat it too hard you'll snap his "first rate" knee in half.

Posted by: mjshabba | July 21, 2010 11:10 AM | Report abuse

Once again TOP 50 player in NBA HISTORY. Hickson ain't that good.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 11:05 AM

And you could tell that when Pippen was 21? Scottie hadnt even dribbled a basketball in the nba at that age. Didnt start an nba game til he was 23. All I'm sayin is that if Lebron stuck around and is all that...who knows how great a tandem he and Hickson could have been. Or not, just sayin Hickson is a young stud who could have been Robin for all we know

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 11:11 AM | Report abuse

div3,

I agree with you. Juwan, has been a good player and teammate just not a franchise player.

First Bullets fans blasted Abe for being cheap for not giving Howard a max deal. Then they booed Juwan for not living up to the same contract they demanded Abe give him!

Posted by: bozomoeman

Juwan's whole story here might have been different except for two things. One was the position shift they forced on him because of Webber's unwillingness to play C. So they tried to make Juwan into a 3, which he was never suited for. He was a solid PF when he earned his All-Star stripes.

The second was, once again, the whole Webber debacle that led to his trade. Had he stayed, the team likely would have fared better over the next couple of years. Juwan's contract would still have been a bit of an albatross, but with the team likely playing better, and Juwan likely playing better with Webber beside him, people would have cared less.

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 11:12 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: SDMDTSU | July 21, 2010 11:05 AM


i agree. i still think the competitive nature of jordan requires him to jockey for g.o.a.t. position even though, imo, it's a one-horse race.

Posted by: omgwthrotfl | July 21, 2010 11:16 AM | Report abuse

And you could tell that when Pippen was 21? Scottie hadnt even dribbled a basketball in the nba at that age. Didnt start an nba game til he was 23. All I'm sayin is that if Lebron stuck around and is all that...who knows how great a tandem he and Hickson could have been. Or not, just sayin Hickson is a young stud who could have been Robin for all we know

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 11:11 AM | Report abuse

let's see how Hickson balls now that the bron is gone. BTW didn't the franchise trade a number 1 pick to get a guy to take his spot? Don't remember that happening to Pipp. One would think that Lebron "approved" of the trade thinking it would improve their roster. Lebron also watched The Great All-Knowing Mike Brown Bench Hickson for the whole season. So you can take whatever opinion of Hickson you like, but Bron nor Cleveland saw HIM as Robin to Bron's Batman. On Bron's end, why roll with just Robin when i can kick it with the whole Justice League.....Flash included.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 11:17 AM | Report abuse

It's interesting that Lebron is currently being criticized for a game where he went 27/19/10. Lots of talk about how he gave up and how MJ would have straight dogged him out in that situation if he'd been the opposition.

All for a game where he dropped a big TripleDub

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 11:19 AM | Report abuse

any takers on the angle that MJ is owner of the Cats, and can't say anything nice about a division "rival" getting markedly better this off season, while he lets their lotto pick PG of the last 3-4 yrs walk to another easten conference team that should be better than last year. i mean what did mike do this summer? Ink Tyrus Thomas. Sounds like Hating to me.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 11:20 AM | Report abuse

If we need a 2/3, how does everyone feel about potentially trading for Xavier Henry from the Grizzles (contract issues/signed Tony Allen...has Gay and Mayo as the starting 2 and 3). He is a "3 and D" kind of player with the athleticism to add an ability to slash. He reminds me a bit of Courtney Lee. Also, he is only like 19/20 years old...

Posted by: merajc86 | July 21, 2010 11:22 AM | Report abuse

Trading a #1 to get Jamison was all Bron, and it was a terrible decision that is part and parcel to why the Cs dumped them.

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 11:22 AM | Report abuse

Juwan Howard will always be a fraud...he won't win in Miami either.

Posted by: leo25 | July 21, 2010 11:23 AM | Report abuse

Juwan Howard will always be a fraud...he won't win in Miami either.

Posted by: leo25 | July 21, 2010 11:23 AM | Report abuse

i mean what did mike do this summer? Ink Tyrus Thomas. Sounds like Hating to me.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 11:20 AM

best part is he made those comments while on a golf course

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 11:24 AM | Report abuse

They'da made him play PF or C back then. that's why the comparison is unfair. Zeke would eat all these "Pure Point Guard" guys cookies back in the day of the hand check. Guys like Rambis,Laimbeer and Oakley would let kids like McGee know exactly what the game is about. I do however think that Lebron woulda been able to handle the physical play better than...let's say everybody's new sweetheart Tha Durantula.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 11:10 AM | Report abuse

Yep...And LeBron couldn't have been a PF or C with no post game. His whole game is based getting to the basket. The Laimbeer, Oakleys and such...would've put him on his ass.

Remember him crying from Songalia fouling him? "They're trying to hurt me."

Yeah...sure he can handle physical play. When he's running over people.

Durant can shoot though. It was a shooters league.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | July 21, 2010 11:24 AM | Report abuse

i dont know...bron is the ultimate brick sh!thouse. I can envision him knocking rodman on his a$$ if that were the style he grew up playing

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 11:26 AM | Report abuse

Yep...And LeBron couldn't have been a PF or C with no post game. His whole game is based getting to the basket. The Laimbeer, Oakleys and such...would've put him on his ass.

Remember him crying from Songalia fouling him? "They're trying to hurt me."

Yeah...sure he can handle physical play. When he's running over people.

Durant can shoot though. It was a shooters league.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | July 21, 2010 11:24 AM | Report abuse

let's name all the 6'11" jumshooters of that era. Maybe Bron couldn't back guys down (yeah right) but he would have a huge andvantage in the face-up art of the game. Or he coluda been the Anthony Mason Point Forward.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 11:28 AM | Report abuse

divi,

I know you love Summer League play, but Hickson could be Pippen? Don't you think that's a bit of a reach?

It's not like Pippen came out of nowhere. He averaged 23/10/4 his senior year.

Like someone else said, I'll buy Hickson as Horace Grant (not just because of position, but likely relative production).

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 11:30 AM | Report abuse

thx divi gotta see throught the hate. at 6'9-6'-10, 260-270 Bron woulda gave guys problems back then. Then again, IF KD was allowed to play the 2/3 back then he would KILL too. MJ or Scottie checking KD. I'd pay money to see it.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 11:31 AM | Report abuse

Was Pippen one of the 50 greatest players in NBA history solely because of his own ability, or was it because he was able to win 6 titles hanging onto Jordan's coattails?
Had Pippen merely been an all-star caliber player on a non-Chicago team, would he still have been considered on that level?

I liken it to the transformation of Pau Gasol in the last two and a half years. Currently, Pau is considered if not the best PF in the league currently playing, definitely in the top 2 or 3.

However, had Gasol been left to flounder on a Memphis team that never would have done anything beyond a few first-round playoff exits, would he have been anything beyond another also-ran all-star caliber player?

It's interesting what joining a winning team can do for the image of a player.

Posted by: psps23 | July 21, 2010 11:32 AM | Report abuse

I didn't like that. It's like my GrandFather saying " I wouldn't have blogged all day at work when i was your age" we yeah, you literally wouldn't have because you couldn't have. there are so many differences in the game,the league, free agency and so on. I doubt that Mike woulda been able to pul it off if he wanted to. him saying he wouldn't have done something, that there is no evidence to support him even being capable of doing just speaks to my man MJs Hubris. Magic and larry were older than Mike, not the same draft class. He may have been chomping at the bit to tear those guys apart while he was at UNC and they were winning NBA 'chips. Magic was drafted in 79, Larry 78 and Mike 84. There was little choice for them but to be adversarial. Mike also sounds like he's taking a shot at a division rival (he does own the Bobcats); a division rival that they seemed poised to overtake. Now; at least on paper, it looks like the cats are sliding back to third in the division with the potential for fourth.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 10:44 AM

I am a MJ fan but that is so true.

Michael of all people probably knows that what these players did is a first and historic and the seeds were planted years ago when these players decided not to reup but to test the market and make their own decisions as players.

Michael is probably just sour that he wasn't in a position to capitalize on the vision by these players. Lest we forget, Bron, Wade, and Bosh are not the only FA's that were in this for their own destinies as well as several Teams.

And it ain't over yet, next year might bring a few more moves and Mike better hope that the Cats are in position like the Heat was this year.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | July 21, 2010 11:35 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: psps23 | July 21, 2010 11:32 AM

bingo.

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 11:36 AM | Report abuse

wikipedia Scottie then son, i really don't have the time to go over Pipp's whole career with you if you aren't hip. Top 50 ALL -Time in part because of his 3 nba first team selections and 8 consecutive all defense first teams, 2 all d second teams, 7 allstar selections and yes the 6 chips.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 11:37 AM | Report abuse

Well there goes 1 year down the drain for Miami's Billionaire Boys Club.
NOTHING GOOD WILL COME FROM HAVING JUWAN HOWARD ON THEIR TEAM!!!
Lakers will 3peat!! You can Dan Gilbert that (guarantee/take that to the bank)!

Posted by: DirtyFoote | July 21, 2010 11:37 AM | Report abuse

Xavier Henry...yay? nay?

Posted by: merajc86 | July 21, 2010 11:42 AM | Report abuse

to "dan gilbert" something means to make a ridiculous guarantee. the heat will be seriously in the mix.

Posted by: omgwthrotfl | July 21, 2010 11:44 AM | Report abuse

Xavier Henry...yay? nay?

Posted by: merajc86 | July 21, 2010 11:42 AM

I think Yi is slotted as our maybe-he-pans-out 3, though how he fits in with our supposed new defensive mindset is a bit puzzling.

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 11:44 AM | Report abuse

Towards a couple of other comments....

Had Larry or Magic not played on stacked teams in Boston and LA, their opinions towards what LeBron, Wade and Bosh did might be different. Had MJ not gotten Pippen and Grant within 4 years of being in the league, his opinion might be different. Had the Dream Team happened towards the beginning of their careers instead of the end, their opinions might be different. It's a different era, where allegiances are as much based on agents and shoe companies as they are teams. Where some of these guys have played against each other for years in AAU, even across country, and where communication is easier just by bouncing texts back and forth. And even MJ brought on perhaps the most hated player (Rodman) from their greatest rival (the Pistons) in order to pursue titles 4, 5, and 6.

That being said, Magic playing with Bird was likely never an option based on their rivalry in college.

The aspect that is being missed somewhat is that the Bird playing with Magic or MJ comparison is a bit overblown. If LeBron and Kobe had decided to play together, then I could see the comparison. That's the rivalry right now that matters. Those two are generally considered the two best. Guys like Wade, Howard, Durant, etc are still fighting it out for third.

Also, had LeBron played in the 80's or 90's he would be the same player he is. They would not have made him play PF, just like they didn't make Magic change his position. Like Bird, who was technically a SF, LeBron is a basketball player and an awesome one and they would have schemed their offense around what he does, just like they were doing in Cleveland.

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 11:44 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 11:44 AM | Report abuse

He fits as well as a round peg does in a square hole...I think he is just a one year flyer...

Posted by: merajc86 | July 21, 2010 11:47 AM | Report abuse

Was Pippen one of the 50 greatest players in NBA history solely because of his own ability, or was it because he was able to win 6 titles hanging onto Jordan's coattails?
Had Pippen merely been an all-star caliber player on a non-Chicago team, would he still have been considered on that level?

Posted by: psps23

You could just as easily argue that MJ wouldn't have been MJ without Pippen. Does MJ win 6 without Pip? Does he win any? Or is he just another Dominique Wilkins, Malone or Barkley?

Pippen was well deserving on being one of the 50 best.

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 11:49 AM | Report abuse

Those of you that doubt that Livingston is a first rate point guard will have your answer no sooner than this upcoming season.

And secondly, there is no way that the Wizards offered Livingston a contract that we don't know about or one that was buried in the small print on the back page of sports section.

Yeah they offered him the same contract that they offered Alonzo Gee, none, the same contract they offered Cartier Martin, none, get the picture.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | July 21, 2010 11:51 AM | Report abuse

"Was Pippen one of the 50 greatest players in NBA history solely because of his own ability, or was it because he was able to win 6 titles hanging onto Jordan's coattails?"

Let me answer that question for you

Absolutely yes...pippen is wrongfully overlooked...dont forget that when jordan retired, pippen carried the bulls to the conference semifinals and would have made the conference finals if it were not for one of the most notorious bad calls ever made in the playoffs....and they won 55 games that year, 2 less than they did with jordan on the squad the year before

Posted by: jasonma1 | July 21, 2010 11:52 AM | Report abuse

Juwan's whole story here might have been different except for two things. One was the position shift they forced on him because of Webber's unwillingness to play C. So they tried to make Juwan into a 3, which he was never suited for. He was a solid PF when he earned his All-Star stripes.

The second was, once again, the whole Webber debacle that led to his trade. Had he stayed, the team likely would have fared better over the next couple of years. Juwan's contract would still have been a bit of an albatross, but with the team likely playing better, and Juwan likely playing better with Webber beside him, people would have cared less.

Posted by: ts35
------------------------------------------

Juwan was just not a franchised player, period. True, he is better suited for PF, but C Web was better at that position. The fact is, Juwan played most of his career in Washington getting booed as a PF.

In addition, I believe Juwan was selected to the all-stars when he was starting as a SF, not PF (he did play PF some, when C Web was shifting over as C).

Posted by: sagaliba | July 21, 2010 11:55 AM | Report abuse

And secondly, there is no way that the Wizards offered Livingston a contract that we don't know about or one that was buried in the small print on the back page of sports section. Yeah they offered him the same contract that they offered Alonzo Gee, none, the same contract they offered Cartier Martin, none, get the picture.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD

along those lines, what contract did they offer childress, outlaw and every other free agent they were known to be interested in and didn't sign? i haven't seen any numbers. according to your logic that means they offered them NOTHING. c'mon larry, put your thinking cap on!

Posted by: omgwthrotfl | July 21, 2010 11:56 AM | Report abuse

You could just as easily argue that MJ wouldn't have been MJ without Pippen. Does MJ win 6 without Pip? Does he win any? Or is he just another Dominique Wilkins, Malone or Barkley?

Pippen was well deserving on being one of the 50 best.

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 11:49 AM

I've always thought similar along the lines of "MJ won zero without Pipp"....BUT, if you cant see the difference between MJ and the rest of those guys I'm not sure what you were watching. MJ at times was the best offensive player in the league AND arguably the best defender ('87 Defensive MVP, 10x all-nba 1st team defense). Malone, Barkley, Wilkins, and yes Pipp couldnt touch that.

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 11:59 AM | Report abuse

IMO, Hickson is the 2010 Roger Mason. A very average player who is treated like royalty by bloggers on this site.

Pippen was the frickin 3rd or 4th best player in the entire 1990's. If Phil didn't mess up by giving Kukoc that play (and really, that was a screwup - Pippen had been Robin for so long and this was his big opportunity, give him the ball), the Bulls would have won it in 1994 without Jordan.

If we had gotten Hickson in the Jamison trade like we tried to, what would Hickson be? He'd be Andray's backup. Hardly Pippenesque. Or HoGrantesque.

I also think people ignore how bad Cleveland's FO was. I mean, we draft Wall and see the obvious need to surround him with quickass atheletes. Cleveland surrounds LBJ with "standouts" like Wally Sz, Illguaukus, and Mo W - players whose games are still stuck in the 1960's. What Cleveland needed to do was to blow it up when LBJ was a rookie and DRAFTED his Pippen. What if Cleveland stunk, got a top 6 pick in the next few years, and drafted DWilliams or Roy or Bynam or some combo. Then, they'd have their Pip, have players who played LBJ's game, and could GROW together. Instead, they went all in and basically traded for Jon Koncak and Kelly Tripuka. I've never liked LBJ but I have always thought it was a shame that Cleveland surrounded him with such an unathletic crew.

Posted by: Urnesto | July 21, 2010 12:08 PM | Report abuse

remember when larry hughes was hailed as lebron's pippen? how'd that work out?

Posted by: omgwthrotfl | July 21, 2010 12:12 PM | Report abuse

Juwan was just not a franchised player, period. True, he is better suited for PF, but C Web was better at that position. The fact is, Juwan played most of his career in Washington getting booed as a PF.

In addition, I believe Juwan was selected to the all-stars when he was starting as a SF, not PF (he did play PF some, when C Web was shifting over as C).

Posted by: sagaliba

He may have been an all-star that season, but it was based off of the 95/96 season he had when Webber got hurt and Juwan carried the team from the PF spot averaging 22, 8 and 4.

Not debating that Juwan was overpaid, nor that he was not a franchise player. His contract would always have been a problem, it was just made much, much worse by the Webber trade and how badly they went into the tank in the years that followed, based in art on a) not having Webber and b) not having the picks the originally traded to get him.

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 12:12 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: Urnesto | July 21, 2010 12:08 PM | Report abuse

so the win now attitude killed us and cleveland just on different ends of the spectrum. The OKC blueprint might be the new model for team building if those guys stay together. but i gotta agree, they kept adding older, experienced players to fit roles they assumed would mesh with Bron. maybe they shoulda just stunk it up a coupla years and added some lotto talent to grow with Bron. Then again, maybe Bron's a pretty good player and leader, that was able to make a one dimensional player like Mo Williams and allstar, and carry cleveland to respactablity for 7 yrs. Gosh ............what a jerk that Bron is.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 12:14 PM | Report abuse

remember when larry hughes was hailed as lebron's pippen? how'd that work out?

Posted by: omgwthrotfl | July 21, 2010 12:12 PM | Report abuse

i think Larry got hurt and then his little brother died. so no it didn't work out, but then again when do Larry Hughes and Scottie Pippen belong in the same conversation?

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 12:16 PM | Report abuse

guys please lookup Scotties credentials before you start listing joker-moes like Hickson and Hughes. Both are good players, but not ALL-NBA top 50 players.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 12:18 PM | Report abuse

And those of you that think Hinrich will be running point behind Wall is a good thing, think again, we will see.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | July 21, 2010 10:23 AM


Normally I might agree with you but Fkips strong suit has been he is a coach that really knows how to utilise his points and if anyone could make it work I think it would be Flip but hey Larry like you said and I agree time will tell so we can take this discussion up at the end of the season because history will tell the tale CHEERS

Posted by: rnorris6 | July 21, 2010 12:20 PM | Report abuse

along those lines, what contract did they offer childress, outlaw and every other free agent they were known to be interested in and didn't sign? i haven't seen any numbers. according to your logic that means they offered them NOTHING. c'mon larry, put your thinking cap on!

Posted by: omgwthrotfl | July 21, 2010 11:56 AM

Offering them NOTHING is precisely what I mean. To offer a contract is to tender an offer. To tender an offer that is legally binding to be accepted or rejected wasn't done or has reported to have been done by the Wizards in any of these cases.

Showing interest is Childress is not the same as offering him a contract in which there isn't any report that Childress or OutLaw ever got one from the Wizards.

Your Play.

LarryInClintonMD.

I gladly stop making this charge if you or anyone can show me a report from anywhere (Google) that the Wizards actually tendered any offers to the fellows as identified above.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | July 21, 2010 12:21 PM | Report abuse

then again when do Larry Hughes and Scottie Pippen belong in the same conversation?

Posted by: lilhollywood10

precisely!

Posted by: omgwthrotfl | July 21, 2010 12:24 PM | Report abuse

I gladly stop making this charge if you or anyone can show me a report from anywhere (Google) that the Wizards actually tendered any offers to the fellows as identified above.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD

i will gladly stop smashing to smithereens your definitive statements that they didn't offer a contract to someone who's not on the team when you produce a report saying that they didn't. just sayin'.

Posted by: omgwthrotfl | July 21, 2010 12:29 PM | Report abuse

Offering them NOTHING is precisely what I mean. To offer a contract is to tender an offer. To tender an offer that is legally binding to be accepted or rejected wasn't done or has reported to have been done by the Wizards in any of these cases.

Larry...that is the dumbest thing you've ever said. All offers aren't reported. Did the Nets offer LeBron a contract? Did the Bulls offer him one? Or just show "intrest" Are the Hawks the only team to offer Joe Johnson a contract?

What other teams offered Childress or Outlaw a contract? You don't know do you? No matter what people on this board believe...contact and trade negotiations are not public and half the time we don't know what the hell is going on until it's something final.

Otherwise...it's a rumor.

Just like you saying the Wizards had intrest in Childress or Outlaw....did Ernie tell you that? Or was it "reported"

Posted by: SDMDTSU | July 21, 2010 12:29 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | July 21, 2010 12:21 PM | Report abuse

Maybe they didn't offer him because he said he didn't owe the team anything for helping him resurrect his career. He surely didn't do us any favors last year. Did he carry us to the playoffs? Did he push us towards respectability? The team gave him a n opportunity and a platform for him to showcase his skills,talent, and most importantly health. A statement like "I don't feel lik i owe anyone anything," would signify to me that he's not interested. why wouldn't you saysomething likeJosh Howard did, that he was partial to re signing because they got him outta dallas. We all rail on Arenas about being a certain way or running his mouth, just as Gil's " i heard the comish is mean' coment coulda sealed his fate last season; Shaun's coulda sealed his here in DC.

Then there's the whole john Wall draft pick, kirk hinrich trade and Gil Arenas return stuff.......but that hasn't been covered very much.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 12:29 PM | Report abuse

I've always thought similar along the lines of "MJ won zero without Pipp"....BUT, if you cant see the difference between MJ and the rest of those guys I'm not sure what you were watching. MJ at times was the best offensive player in the league AND arguably the best defender ('87 Defensive MVP, 10x all-nba 1st team defense). Malone, Barkley, Wilkins, and yes Pipp couldnt touch that.

Posted by: divi3

You know who was the second best defensive player, some times even better, and was arguably the second best player in all of that time....Pippen.

But we weren't necessarily talking about ability, just perception. No doubt Jordan was awesome, and maybe would have found a way through without Pip (and Grant, etc), but say he won 2 instead of 6? Then it would be, he was good, but no Larry or Magic, etc. Point being that people should not sleep on Pip. Pip was on the All Defensive Team x 10, 8 on the 1st team. And no, that was not off of Jordan's coattails. He also finished in the top 10 for MVP of the league 6 times. While playing along side of MJ.

People are complaining that having to pair up with Wade and Bosh means LeBron's not doing it 'on his own'. But MJ was just lucky enough to have his Wade and Bosh (Pippen and Grant) drop in his lap, early in his career, through the draft. Bosh and Grant are a wash, and Wade and Pippen are at least a wash (I'd be inclined to take Pip over Wade).

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 12:30 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: SDMDTSU | July 21, 2010 12:29 PM

somebody call an ambulance! larry's been badly cut! lol!

Posted by: omgwthrotfl | July 21, 2010 12:32 PM | Report abuse

LeBron made Mo Williams? But Mo Williams is putting up the same numbers as he did in Milwaukee before he came.

He got more attention being in Cleveland on a winning team...but stop acting like he was some scrub before he got there and LeBron made him.

LeBron ain't do it by himself...get off that.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | July 21, 2010 12:34 PM | Report abuse

LeBron made Mo Williams? But Mo Williams is putting up the same numbers as he did in Milwaukee before he came.

He got more attention being in Cleveland on a winning team...but stop acting like he was some scrub before he got there and LeBron made him.

LeBron ain't do it by himself...get off that.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | July 21, 2010 12:34 PM | Report abuse


so he was an all star in Milwaukee? and what do people say about guys who put up numbers on crap teams. Mo Williams led the bucks to the lotto how many yrs? he's not a scrub, but he is average. A tad above average when your Pont-Small Forward demands a triple team, and you have Shaq down low.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 12:40 PM | Report abuse

LeBron made Mo Williams? But Mo Williams is putting up the same numbers as he did in Milwaukee before he came.

He got more attention being in Cleveland on a winning team...but stop acting like he was some scrub before he got there and LeBron made him.

LeBron ain't do it by himself...get off that.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | July 21, 2010 12:34 PM | Report abuse

BTW, Mo Williams got his first allstar nod playing alongside Lebron eventhough you say he's been putting up the same numbers as his previos team where he was never selected to an all star team. So whether it was the attention of being on a winning team (Lebron's winning team vs his former team that he couldn't help win) or him just ballin outta control, the Allstar nod din't come until he was "Robin". He's still one dimensional though, as revealed in this years playoffs.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 12:44 PM | Report abuse

LeBron made Mo Williams? But Mo Williams is putting up the same numbers as he did in Milwaukee before he came.

He got more attention being in Cleveland on a winning team...but stop acting like he was some scrub before he got there and LeBron made him.

LeBron ain't do it by himself...get off that.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | July 21, 2010 12:34 PM | Report abuse

----------
Actually, I'm acting like Mo Williams was a scrub both before AND after he was traded to the Cavs. And I agree: LeBron did not "make" Mo Williams because Mo Williams is not made. Mo Williams is probably the 20th best point in the league.

And I promise you this - unless Cleveland pulls some insane Kwame for Gasol type trade - that the Wiz will win many more games (say 10) than the MoWilliams-Jamison-Hickson triumverate. Mo Williams is Steve Blake with a headband. Total scrub.

Posted by: Urnesto | July 21, 2010 12:45 PM | Report abuse

I'm content to let the future decide about LeBron.

One the one hand, first he's got to win a fist full of rings. Gonna take some doing.

Or, on the other, someone has to stop him. Gonna take some doing.

Posted by: Nemo24601 | July 21, 2010 12:47 PM | Report abuse

Wes Unseld may not have been a very good GM. But I don't think he ever got enough credit for correctly assessing Juwan Howard's abilities. It turns out that Miami was the team that over-bid for Howard. Unseld's offer of $84 million was much more in-line with Howard's true value.

Once the League made Howard a free-agent again, it was the Washington media -- and fans -- that forced Unseld and the Bullets to toss-in the extra $21 million and sign Howard.

There was almost rioting in the streets here in D.C. the day Howard signed that deal with Miami. Commentators called Abe Pollin cheap and his franchise a joke. And fans were turning-in their season tickets and burning their jerseys. Once Howard became available again, the Bullets had no choice but to pay whatever it took to get him back.

It was clear almost from game-1 of Juwan Howard's $105 million contract that he was not the player everyone -- including Miami -- thought he was. The result was that Howard was run out of town, the team was hamstrung by the contract, and another decade of futility was set in place.

But no one ever remembers that it was Wes Unseld and Abe Pollin who knew it was a mistake to tie their franchise's future to Juwan Howard. And all the fans -- conveniently -- forget that it was they who were the real problem.

Kevin Olson
Manassas, VA

Posted by: noslok | July 21, 2010 12:50 PM | Report abuse

melodious_thunk

The dawn of the Ernest Grunfeld Era signals that the days of the Washington Wizards paying top dollar for less-than-superstar caliber players are over.

Because Ted told him he can't...

Sometimes the best move a GM can make is to simply say "Thanks for the memories. We wish you well in your future endeavors." Ernest knows this.

Yea, everytime one of his trades, draft picks and/or free agent signings didn't work he shipped them out for someone else who didn't work?

Ernest Grunfeld's uncommon restraint during free agency this year has positioned us well for the future

You said Ernie was a yes man under Abe and now under Ted is is doing what Ted tells him so how does he get credit for doing something right, but no blame for doing something wrong?

The Wizards are only in the beginning stages of their rebuilding efforts, but always remember this--a true audiophile can recognize a masterpiece even when presented with only the first few bars!

Success is closer than you think.

Yea, once Ted replaces Ernie

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | July 21, 2010 12:51 PM | Report abuse

"The dawn of the Ernest Grunfeld Era signals that the days of the Washington Wizards paying top dollar for less-than-superstar caliber players are over."

Haha, Melodious--good one! ;)

Posted by: KTV1 | July 21, 2010 12:52 PM | Report abuse

@omgwthrotfl

Oh contraire, the idea that offering a contract is some secret ritual and many offerings go unpublished and unvielled, I totally beg to differ.

Any meaningful contract offers whether for bigtime stars or average players always get reported.

The idea that the Wizards are actually tendering offers to players that never get reported are preposterous.

So it makes more since to make an assertion to say something hasn't occurred when there isn't any indication on numerous occasion that any reports of tenders were made.

On the other hand, you put yourself further from the truth when you make an assertion that something occurred when there isn't any reports that it actually occurred.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | July 21, 2010 12:52 PM | Report abuse

Good for Juwan. Now that some time has passed, all i remember is how awesome he was with the fab five and before that massive contract. Its not his fault that Unseld was the worst GM ever, despite his awesome skills as a player. We paid him too much, but he was still one of the top 5 90's Bullets. It will be nice to see him make it to a championship and lose in four games to a superior Lakers squad.

Don't trade Gil ever! I am over the gun thing at this point, and if Joe johnson and Rudy Gay and Amare stoudemire make that much money this summer, he seems worth the money now in comparison.

Posted by: bosshog7169 | July 21, 2010 12:59 PM | Report abuse

"People are complaining that having to pair up with Wade and Bosh means LeBron's not doing it 'on his own'. But MJ was just lucky enough to have his Wade and Bosh (Pippen and Grant) drop in his lap, early in his career, through the draft. Bosh and Grant are a wash, and Wade and Pippen are at least a wash (I'd be inclined to take Pip over Wade).

Posted by: ts35"

I believe you have it mistaken. It's Wade that now has had his Pippen and Grant fall into his lap ;)

And trust me, people would not have complained about Lebron "not doing it on his own" had he stayed in Cleveland and had Wade and/or Bosh (or any other prospective star) join him there. That would have unequivocally been Lebron's team and their hypothetical titles would have been Lebron's titles.

My bet is that this will still be Wade's team in Miami. Not just in sentimental value, either. I'm betting Wade is the crunch time closer, Wade is the primary perimeter scoring option in the half-court (with Bosh being the primary post option), and Wade will be the tone-setter defensively guarding the premier perimeter player on the opposing side. Lebron will fall under Wade's umbrella, both on and off the court. Wait and see.

Posted by: psps23 | July 21, 2010 1:01 PM | Report abuse

@lihollywood10

The idea that we did not offer Livingston a contract based on the fact that he wasn't excited about returning here says more about the Wizards than Livingston.

The Wizards can use what Livingston said as an excuse for not tendering him a contract. Maybe the Wizards did not want him and Grunfield may feel that Livingston could not be an asset on this Team.

I just disagree with the notion that Livingston wasn't worth trying to resign even with Hinrich above.

You see that is a GM's decision on the direction and whom he wants on his squad.

You see Livingston may have wanted out of here, but from where I sit the Wizards should have said yes, I understand your point of view, but I think you would be a great asset to our team and here is what I am offering you to stay here.

First rate, first class offer to a 6'7" point guard that would have signaled a new era for this franchise, something that we all are clamoring for.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | July 21, 2010 1:06 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: noslok | July 21, 2010 12:50 PM | Report abuse

ditto

Posted by: merajc86 | July 21, 2010 1:07 PM | Report abuse

Oh and regarding Pippen, don't get me wrong, he definitely belongs in the top 50. He earned those 6 titles as much as Jordan did. I'm merely pointing out the effect winning has on one's perception of a player's ability.

Posted by: psps23 | July 21, 2010 1:07 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | July 21, 2010 12:52 PM

i never stated definitively that a contract offer was made. i said it's possible that it was and we simply don't know about it. do you see the distinction between the two positions?

ask yourself these questions:

did shaun livingston, his agent or the wizards say he was never offered a contract by the wizards. did livingston or his agent say they only received one contract offer?

lastly, did you read sdmdtsu's 12:29 post? he asked several common-sense questions that should help you see that the situation isn't as black and white as you paint it to be.

if you can't see the logic presented to you, despite it being mere inches from your face, well....

Posted by: omgwthrotfl | July 21, 2010 1:12 PM | Report abuse

Larry....let's assume this:

You see Livingston may have wanted out of here, but from where I sit the Wizards should have said yes, I understand your point of view, but I think you would be a great asset to our team and here is what I am offering you to stay here.

And what if Livingston said....I want to go somewhere where I can be a starter. John Wall is your PG of the future, I'm not looking to be a backup.

Then what?

Posted by: SDMDTSU | July 21, 2010 1:21 PM | Report abuse

Or should the Wizards say Larry...just for the record...we offered Shaun Livingston a contract and he declined.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | July 21, 2010 1:27 PM | Report abuse

And trust me, people would not have complained about Lebron "not doing it on his own" had he stayed in Cleveland and had Wade and/or Bosh (or any other prospective star) join him there.
Posted by: psps23

Less people maybe, but by-and-large the reaction would be the same. More people would just be questioning why they all chose to go to Cleveland ;-)

Lebron will fall under Wade's umbrella, both on and off the court. Wait and see.

Last I checked, ESPN didn't do a one-hour special announcing Wade's 'Decision'. Don't get me wrong, I like Wade a lot as a player, and he may ultimately be the guy who takes the shot at the end of the game. But chances are just as good that it's LeBron setting him up for that shot. LeBron's ego is only going to let him take so much of a secondary role. Given that Wade has already proven that he's willing to do that (volunteering to come off the bench on the Olympic team, taking less cash than James or Bosh), I'm betting he's not as concerned about the limelight.

Time will tell. But until demonstrated otherwise, imo LeBron will be the lead dog, or at least most-hyped dog.

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 1:27 PM | Report abuse

Lead dogs sit in the middle at press conferences while the guys next to them say "Dwayne's team."

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 1:33 PM | Report abuse

And trust me, people would not have complained about Lebron "not doing it on his own" had he stayed in Cleveland and had Wade and/or Bosh (or any other prospective star) join him there. That would have unequivocally been Lebron's team and their hypothetical titles would have been Lebron's titles.

Posted by: psps23 | July 21, 2010 1:01 PM | Report abuse

the other guys weren't picking Cleveland over SoBe get serious. Bosh's people declined the widely reported sign and trade to Cleveland, and Wade's a Champion in MIA. why leave the City you brought it's first NBA championship to try to win one im Lame Assed Cleveland. Too many "moving parts" to say "If Lebron's the Man they shoulda came to him."

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 1:34 PM | Report abuse

Don't disappear, LarryInClintonMD.

You've been in tighter jams before. Explain yourself.

Posted by: Firuz1 | July 21, 2010 1:36 PM | Report abuse

Less people maybe, but by-and-large the reaction would be the same. More people would just be questioning why they all chose to go to Cleveland ;-)

Disagree. Wade has already won one...but it would've been a little less backlash if he left Miami.

Bosh nobody would've cared. He's not in the top 3 players in the league discussion. Clearly a complimentary player...similar to Gasol in Memphis. He can't be the #1 guy.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | July 21, 2010 1:37 PM | Report abuse

My bet is that this will still be Wade's team in Miami.
Posted by: psps23 | July 21, 2010 1:01 PM

I agree, mainly on Wade being the sentimental favorite in Miami to begin with, the negative reaction to Lebron's move from Johnnie-white-guy-columnist, and the fact Wade very well may take majority of last shots. Plus, no matter how many rings they may win in Miami...Wade will always have 1 more.

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 1:40 PM | Report abuse

Fans always go for the most exciting/charismatic player. Is that Wade or James when both are on the court? We won't know until the season plays itself out a little bit.

Posted by: Firuz1 | July 21, 2010 1:45 PM | Report abuse

"Last I checked, ESPN didn't do a one-hour special announcing Wade's 'Decision'."

This is true, and up to that point, Lebron has been the most hyped and the supposed leader of the FA class.

But everyone saw the fallout with Lebron since that debacle. He went from arguably the most beloved American athlete alive to enemy #1 in a vast number of circles.

And since then, it's been all Wade. It was Wade that came to Lebron's defense of "The Decision." It was Wade that shot back at Gilbert. It was Wade that spoke on behalf of the Heat as being motivated by their detractors. Wade has taken the unquestioned role as the leader of the Heat. And I'll say that will fall by the wayside if Lebron becomes the #1 dominant force on the court for the Heat, but I actually don't believe that will happen. I honestly believe that Wade will be the top dog on the court as well. Lebron will certainly still get his hype, but I'm going out on a limb and saying the Heat's MVP during this era will be Dwyane Wade. And when it comes to awards and recognitions, it will be Wade, not Lebron, earning the top honors (at least between the two of them).

Posted by: psps23 | July 21, 2010 1:45 PM | Report abuse

Larry....let's assume this:

You see Livingston may have wanted out of here, but from where I sit the Wizards should have said yes, I understand your point of view, but I think you would be a great asset to our team and here is what I am offering you to stay here.

And what if Livingston said....I want to go somewhere where I can be a starter. John Wall is your PG of the future, I'm not looking to be a backup.

Then what?

Posted by: SDMDTSU | July 21, 2010 1:21 PM

Well, lets assume.

Now everyone knows that I said we should have signed Livingston before the season ended.

Also, it has been REPORTED that he signed with Charlotte as the backup to their current point guard.

Can he beat that guy out and be the starter? He probably will. This underscores the value I have been putting on Livingston.

If Livingston said what you said, then as I have been saying as the GM I would have countered with,

"I understand, we have Wall, but I think you would still be a great asset to our team as out number two point guard and there will be plenty of minutes to go around. I respect that you might want to start elsewhere, but I am offering you this fair market contract, because I value what you can do as a player and would like for you to stay here."

Now if he refused as all indications he would have, the Wizards would have been on record as being first class in the way they handled Livingston.

This type of perception of handling your players in a first class manner means everything when it comes to signing future players and players wanting to stay here.

Publicity is what it is because some things need to be publicized because it can create great opportunity for your organization.

The Livingston case is just another instance where the Wizards lost another opportunity to create goodwill for the organization even while Livingston was going to, as everyone says, leave.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | July 21, 2010 1:53 PM | Report abuse

didn't vinny chase buy Shuan Livingstone's knee in the latest episode of entourage?????????

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 2:07 PM | Report abuse

Juwan broke into the league at about the same time as Oscar Robertson.

Posted by: randysbailin | July 21, 2010 2:09 PM | Report abuse


Now if he refused as all indications he would have, the Wizards would have been on record as being first class in the way they handled Livingston.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD

how would the wizards have been "on record" if livingston refused to sign? this is what i've been getting at, larry. if neither party leaks it to the press, it doesn't get reported.

i think i now better understand where you're coming from. it appears you feel that, if indeed the wiz offered him a contract, they should have publicized it. i disagree, but i understand that.

Posted by: omgwthrotfl | July 21, 2010 2:11 PM | Report abuse

I'm going out on a limb and saying the Heat's MVP during this era will be Dwyane Wade. And when it comes to awards and recognitions, it will be Wade, not Lebron, earning the top honors (at least between the two of them).

Wade may end up being the better player, but the hype will continue to follow LeBron. I doubt Wade will win more honors, not because he won't deserve them, but because I think LeBron cares about them a lot more than Wade does.

Honestly, few things would make me happier than seeing LeBron fade into the background a bit. But there is nothing I have seen that makes me believe he will let that happen.

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 2:12 PM | Report abuse

I also think that aside from trying to win a title or several, LBJ's personal goal (and I think he's said it or at least joked about it) will be to be the first player since Oscar to average a triple-double for the season, something that neither Magic, Larry, MJ, or Kobe has done.

If he can do that (and he definitely can), it won't matter what Wade does.

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 2:22 PM | Report abuse

hahah.. Miami thinks it can win with just spare parts surrounding the big 3. The Bulls with MJ, Lakers with Kobe, so on had a REAL supporting cast, not just a bunch of names. Joel Anthony? who is that? Juwan is old as dirt and cannot play anymore. Can't wait to see this Miami team go down in flames....

Posted by: barrysmith1 | July 21, 2010 2:38 PM | Report abuse

Apparently Robin Lopez is out for the USA with a back injury, and David Lee dislocated a finger on the first day of minicamp.

That leaves only Brook Lopez, Tyson Chandler, and Javale McGee as the possible Center candidates for the squad (provided Lee remains out).

Could McGee actually sneak into the top 12? What a shocker that would be for some on here.

Posted by: psps23 | July 21, 2010 3:33 PM | Report abuse

"Spare parts"??? The Heat are going to the finals this year fairly easily barring a major injury bug. All they need to be is competent in filling out the roster and I think they are well on their way. Z, Mike Miller, Haislem, and now JH are more than adequate when surrounded with 3 of the top 10 players in the game today. They now have just enough size and depth to go along with perhaps the best open shooter in the game today in MM. And, believe me, MM is going to get a lot of wide open looks on this team. Looks like the Heat and Lakers to me in the Finals next season.

Posted by: rphilli721 | July 21, 2010 3:46 PM | Report abuse

Apparently Robin Lopez is out for the USA with a back injury, and David Lee dislocated a finger on the first day of minicamp.

That leaves only Brook Lopez, Tyson Chandler, and Javale McGee as the possible Center candidates for the squad (provided Lee remains out).

Could McGee actually sneak into the top 12? What a shocker that would be for some on here.

Posted by: psps23

Don't forget Kevin Love. Love is a better player at this point, and well suited to the international game, but certainly McGee provides more athleticism and shot blocking. Personally, I think they should take 3 C's, Brook Lopez, Love and either Chandler or McGee. They have enough diversity among their other players to be able to afford 3 C's. Not having Lee would hurt though, because he fits in well (obviously) with what D'Antoni is doing with the US offense.

Btw, psps23, McGee's possible inclusion on the roster is partially a commentary on his ability and growth and partially a commentary on the state of American centers. I don't know if it says much that McGee might make the roster because Robin Lopez couldn't make it.

In other news, it's a shame there weren't any veteran 7ft true centers available to help out, mentor and be the physical presence.

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 3:48 PM | Report abuse

I don't know if it says much that McGee might make the roster because Robin Lopez couldn't make it.

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 3:48 PM | Report abuse


be fair. it's the first week of workouts. JMc coulda beat out Lopez if he was available to play more than just one day. Anything coulda happened. Attributing his potential inclusion to Lopez injury is to assume that Robin Lopez was a lock at the C, and I'm not prepared to say that. i think that going into camp Mcgee had just as good a chance to make the squad as Lopez and even Love to some effect.


Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 3:55 PM | Report abuse

be fair. it's the first week of workouts. JMc coulda beat out Lopez if he was available to play more than just one day. Anything coulda happened. Attributing his potential inclusion to Lopez injury is to assume that Robin Lopez was a lock at the C, and I'm not prepared to say that. i think that going into camp Mcgee had just as good a chance to make the squad as Lopez and even Love to some effect.


Posted by: lilhollywood10

Being 'fair'. If the Knicks could have insured Amare's contract, McGee wouldn't be there, whereas RLopez was on the roster prior to that.

I'm not trying to downplay the opportunity for McGee, this is the second time he's been invited to participate, which is great. They obviously see him as someone who will be a contributor, whether now or in the future. I just don't think people should get ahead of themselves in terms of what it means. If Lee is healthy, I don't think McGee is going. If Bynum were healthy, I don't think McGee would be there.

In generic terms of who's a better player between Love and McGee, overall I think Love wins, call it 60-40, mainly on skill, physical play and experience. But if they decide they need a shot-blocker, they might go McGee's way because certainly Love is not going to provide that. If Chandler plays more like the Chandler of a few years ago and can handle the shot-blocking (not a certainty by any means) they may go with someone more physical regardless.

But to the original point, the presence of McGee, RLopez and specifically Chandler, do speak to a current lack of veteran depth at the Center position in American hoops.

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 4:08 PM | Report abuse

Why is pulling teeth to give Javale any kind of credit? Clearly USA Basketball sees something impressive in him and believes he may have a future with the squad. For all anyone knows he would go in there and feed Robin Lopez his shorts

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 4:09 PM | Report abuse

Why is it picking on McGee to present the facts?

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 4:15 PM | Report abuse

I think a major point missed in the whole "LeBron to Miami" story is that back in the MJ, Bird, Magic era there were 4/5 less teams in the league. So the better teams then were far less diluted by today's standards. Bird was surrounded by an all-star caliber starting 5 with guys like Bill Walton coming off the bench. Magic ran the Lakers show with HOF's Karem and James Worthy with players like Michael Cooper coming off the bench. Those teams were simply stacked already, which leads me to my next point. MJ had a far less quality surrounding cast than those teams for much of his championship run. Sure, in the end, Chicago added Rodman to go along with Pippen, but for most of the run it was MJ SP and filler. The big 2 with simply the best alpha male to ever play basketball! As far as Miami goes, it is simply now a throwback loaded team with the former stars gripping to protect their own legacies with MJ probably having the only legitimate gripe.

Posted by: rphilli721 | July 21, 2010 4:18 PM | Report abuse

and again, this is the same kid Flip chose to DNP 22x and play 5 minutes or less another 9x last year. That's 31 games of non-development in a toilet bowl season.

Would love to hear CoachKs thoughts on that as he critiques Javale's game this week.

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 4:23 PM | Report abuse

Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy..Juwan kept his mouth shut when everything around him was swirling...never bad mouthed Bullets management and let Webber flame himself out....

He has been consistent as he can be and a consummate team player, which says a lot in this day....making even $1mil a year is nice work if you can get it...

Posted by: pentagon40 | July 21, 2010 4:23 PM | Report abuse

Sure, in the end, Chicago added Rodman to go along with Pippen, but for most of the run it was MJ SP and filler.

Don't sleep on Horace Grant. He wasn't the offensive player those others were, but he was an excellent rebounder and post-defender and was the critical anchor in allowing MJ and Pip to play pressure D and cheat the passing lanes. That's according to their defensive guru Johnny Bach, not me.

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 4:24 PM | Report abuse

Why is it picking on McGee to present the facts?

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 4:15 PM

It's a fact to assume Mcgee couldnt beat out Robin Lopez?

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 4:25 PM | Report abuse

Is Kevin Seraphin going to be on the French squad? I know Yi is already with the Chinese team.

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 4:32 PM | Report abuse

and again, this is the same kid Flip chose to DNP 22x and play 5 minutes or less another 9x last year. That's 31 games of non-development in a toilet bowl season.

Would love to hear CoachKs thoughts on that as he critiques Javale's game this week.

Posted by: divi3

All before the blow-up mind you, when a lot of the back-up C minutes might have been going to AB. It's obvious Flip didn't do a great job last year with adjustments, at the same time, not having been at practice, I'm not going to say those DNPs were wrong, at least early on. They clearly had different expectations of what kind of team they had, and who knows what kind of effort McGee was giving in practice.

I doubt Coach K will say anything but nice things about all of the players, especially given that it's an optional activity. But it would be awesome to be in the room with just the coaches when they break down everyone's game. It's a really, really young team.

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 4:39 PM | Report abuse

Why is it picking on McGee to present the facts?

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 4:15 PM | Report abuse

I feel you. I'm not saying JMc is the second coming of Wilt b/c of the invite. I just don't wanna get to downgrading him too much. Robin Lopez is no world beater, and I think going into camp they had an even shot at making the team. Lopez mighta had the edge coming in, but JMc has made in impression on the folks at USA hoops. I'd think he really just has to do as he's told and he could make the team. but i'm not crazy either. We all know that JMc is limited, people's opinions vary as to the degree of his limitations, but IMHO Dwight Howard would eat his lunch everyday , and you know how i feel bout DH.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 4:39 PM | Report abuse

CoachK: "Good Lord son, don't you ever do that again! You arent a guard! Dont you have a big man coach up in DC?"

Javale: "Yes, he was a 6'5" SG for the Hawks."

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 4:46 PM | Report abuse

It's a fact to assume Mcgee couldnt beat out Robin Lopez?

Posted by: divi3

nope, but it is a fact that RLopez was on the roster and McGee wasn't, that's all. Could mean many things. Could just mean they were more comfortable with him because they still run similar sets to D'Antoni's system in Phoenix so RLo would be more familar. Or they liked him because he played more college ball. Who knows?

I just think it's a little early for people to puff out their chests too far on McGee's behalf. But puffed out a little bit? Absolutely ok. It's a great chance for him to get exposed to training with other players.

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 4:46 PM | Report abuse

I hold no illusions about javale...but I'm also sure he coulda looked pretty good runnin&gunnin with Nash in Pho, and that RLopez mighta struggled at times rollin with Earl

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 4:48 PM | Report abuse

I hold no illusions about javale...but I'm also sure he coulda looked pretty good runnin&gunnin with Nash in Pho, and that RLopez mighta struggled at times rollin with Earl

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 4:48 PM | Report abuse

realest sh!+ you eva wrote

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 21, 2010 4:56 PM | Report abuse

I hold no illusions about javale...but I'm also sure he coulda looked pretty good runnin&gunnin with Nash in Pho, and that RLopez mighta struggled at times rollin with Earl

Posted by: divi3

No doubt, but it's a bit apples and oranges because they're different kinds of players. RLo is not as nearly athletic, but more physical, maybe more skilled (I haven't watched him enough) and a bit more experienced in running sets. For some coaches knowing where you're supposed to be counts more.

That being said, I don't know why they would take RLo if BrLo is available. McGee at least provides something different.

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 5:03 PM | Report abuse

agree with whomever said this USA team looks vulnerable, off night shooting for Durantula and it could be bye-bye that easily

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 5:09 PM | Report abuse

yeah, them Lopez boys are BIG. Move so well in the post sometimes it's deceptive just how much bulk they got, Robin was banging head-to-head with Bynum/Gasul

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 5:17 PM | Report abuse

agree with whomever said this USA team looks vulnerable, off night shooting for Durantula and it could be bye-bye that easily

Posted by: divi3

I'm figuring guys like Steph Curry an Danny Granger get a bit of a leg-up based on that. Fortunately the 3pt line for Worlds is shorter than the US line, so that will help some.

I don't think scoring will be a problem for this team. Rebounding and Defense, maybe.

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 5:19 PM | Report abuse

Most pressing need for this team at the moment anothe genuine small forward, none of this damned combo nonsense. A jack of all trades is a master of none.

Posted by: glawrence007 | July 21, 2010 5:20 PM | Report abuse

i hate the Team USA games that come down to being able to hit 18-22ft Js, seems risky, though this last team could basically shutdown any opposition when they really needed to as they did Spain in crunch of Gold Medal game.

hope some guys are committed to playing hardcore defense in this group

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 5:23 PM | Report abuse

Most pressing need for this team at the moment anothe genuine small forward, none of this damned combo nonsense. A jack of all trades is a master of none.

Posted by: glawrence007

Well it seems like the international game is better suited to the smaller 4. Guys like 'Melo. But I have to say I was a bit surprised to see Gerald Wallace, Jeff Green, and to a lesser extent Andre Igoudala being considered our 4's, without at least one Power forward in the mix.

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 5:40 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: DC_MAN88 | July 21, 2010 5:55 PM | Report abuse

But our various combinations of backcourts should give teams fits. We got great combos of size, speed, playmaking ability, and guys who can bounce easily between the 1 and the 2.

Have to figure Rose is in. I would guess Billups for versatility, leadership and defense. Curry for his stroke. Evans? Hard to leave him off. Rondo for his playmaking and defense, and he's been in more big games than most of the rest. Unless Mayo shows them something in training camp, he might be the odd man out. Maybe Evans too.

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 5:59 PM | Report abuse

Sure, in the end, Chicago added Rodman to go along with Pippen, but for most of the run it was MJ SP and filler.

Don't sleep on Horace Grant. He wasn't the offensive player those others were, but he was an excellent rebounder and post-defender and was the critical anchor in allowing MJ and Pip to play pressure D and cheat the passing lanes. That's according to their defensive guru Johnny Bach, not me.

Posted by: ts35

Like I said, MJ, SP, and filler. I never said the filler wasn't adequate to very good at certain tasks. They obviously had to be. It's a team sport. But, MJ/SP were the two all-stars and HOF's that carried that team for most of that run. Grant was a good defender and rebounder, but not an all-star or HOF. Not even close. Doesn't come close to Bird, McHale, Parish, DJ, Ainge with Walton, Maxwell etc coming off the bench. That's 3 or 4 HOF's with a few more all-stars. Bird was obviously the best of the bunch and the alpha dog on that team, but he had plenty of help. BTW, that team played team basketball like no other team I've seen before or since when they were rolling.

Posted by: rphilli721 | July 21, 2010 6:29 PM | Report abuse

Like I said, MJ, SP, and filler. I never said the filler wasn't adequate to very good at certain tasks. They obviously had to be. It's a team sport. But, MJ/SP were the two all-stars and HOF's that carried that team for most of that run. Grant was a good defender and rebounder, but not an all-star or HOF. Not even close. Doesn't come close to Bird, McHale, Parish, DJ, Ainge with Walton, Maxwell etc coming off the bench. That's 3 or 4 HOF's with a few more all-stars. Bird was obviously the best of the bunch and the alpha dog on that team, but he had plenty of help. BTW, that team played team basketball like no other team I've seen before or since when they were rolling.

Posted by: rphilli721

Grant was far better than filler (and was an All-Star in 1994, along with 4 all defensive team nominations). He'll never get the credit he deserves because he played with MJ and Pip and because he wasn't a scorer. But he was the glue that held their ferocious team D together.

It was a different era than the Boston/LA era, under different restrictions. But the Boston team you mentioned isn't even the most talented Boston team ever. And Ainge and DJ are overrated.

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 9:40 PM | Report abuse

"I hold no illusions about javale...but I'm also sure he coulda looked pretty good runnin&gunnin with Nash in Pho, and that RLopez mighta struggled at times rollin with Earl"

Posted by: divi3 | July 21, 2010 4:48 PM |

No question, McGee could probably throw down spoon fed lob dunks every bit as well, if not better, than Lopez. The things he doesn't do as well as Lopez, however, includes physical individual post defense, smart, aware, attentive team defense, playing within his role on offense and not trying to do more than his limited skill set allows for. Those are the kinds of things coaches tend to care about more than the occasional Sportscenter throwdown.

Posted by: kalo_rama | July 21, 2010 10:46 PM | Report abuse

"That being said, I don't know why they would take RLo if BrLo is available. McGee at least provides something different.

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 5:03 PM

I could see them taking both Lopez boys if both were available). They actually complement each others' strengths pretty well. Brook is a go-to offensive player who can hold his own defensively. Robin is a solid defensive player who can work within a role/system on offense well enough to have to be accounted for but whose effort on defense won't flag if he doesn't get a lot of touches. McGee is all about potential at this point; he's a wild horse that might not take to the bridle. Robin Lopez is a guy coaches know what to expect from. On a compilation team like the USA squad, that's got a lot of value to the coaches.

Posted by: kalo_rama | July 21, 2010 10:57 PM | Report abuse

Robin Lopez is a guy coaches know what to expect from. On a compilation team like the USA squad, that's got a lot of value to the coaches.

Posted by: kalo_rama

I hear ya, but unless Chandler is over his injuries, I can see McGee's appeal as the only really athletic shot-blocking type among the bigs.

But if you take McGee, you're almost obliged to take 3 C's. Which makes it a shame that Lee is hurt and Amare is uninsured. Both could legitimately play the 4 or 5 in international competition.

Posted by: ts35 | July 21, 2010 11:23 PM | Report abuse

True, but I don't know that that's a vital dimension to have for international play. None of the teams that have given the USA trouble over the past decade+ have trotted out a lot of high flyers. Conversely, several of the USA teams that have struggled featured a lot of length and athleticism, to no real advantage. In fact, when the USA has gotten into trouble it's been because they've tried to win based on physical dominance rather than smart, organized, team-oriented play. Based on that history, McGee wouldn't strike me as a "must have" kind of player.

That said, I see your point about needing to take 3 Cs. If McGee does make it, I would think it would be mostly for depth and injury coverage, unless all of the preferred guys are hurt or beg off. I wouldn't think he'd be a preferred choice to be in the top of the rotation.

Posted by: kalo_rama | July 21, 2010 11:52 PM | Report abuse

No question, McGee could probably throw down spoon fed lob dunks every bit as well, if not better, than Lopez. The things he doesn't do as well as Lopez, however, includes physical individual post defense, smart, aware, attentive team defense, playing within his role on offense and not trying to do more than his limited skill set allows for. Those are the kinds of things coaches tend to care about more than the occasional Sportscenter throwdown.

Posted by: kalo_rama | July 21, 2010 10:46 PM | Report abuse

You and your butt kissers (ts35 etal), Ed Tapscott and Flip Saunders seem to be the only people watching NBA basketball that
have such a negative opinion of Javale's skill set. It's similar to the same nonsense you attributed to Andrae Blatche before he had the opportunity to put up ALL STAR numbers once he got a chance.

The major reason this kids development (as well as Blatche and Nick Young) has been stymied is because of the way this dysfunctional operation treated player develpment over the past two lost seasons.

Posted by: NewManagement | July 21, 2010 11:53 PM | Report abuse

"It's similar to the same nonsense you attributed to Andrae Blatche before he had the opportunity to put up ALL STAR numbers once he got a chance."

I never had a problem with Blatche's skill set. My problem was with his work ethic and attitude. And the fact is that none of those problems have come close to being fully resolved, as he continued to flaunt the same attitudinal/emotional immaturity issues last season while putting up functionally meaningless (albeit impressive) numbers playing big minutes and putting up lots of shots on a terrible team.

Posted by: kalo_rama | July 22, 2010 12:03 AM | Report abuse

That said, I see your point about needing to take 3 Cs. If McGee does make it, I would think it would be mostly for depth and injury coverage, unless all of the preferred guys are hurt or beg off. I wouldn't think he'd be a preferred choice to be in the top of the rotation.

Posted by: kalo_rama

That, and it's probably not going to take long for Marc Gasol (Pau's not going) to tell his teammates "Ball fake." Especially in adjusting to international refs, I'd expect McGee to pick up a lot of fouls. That's not a knock on McGee, I expect a lot of those guys are going to have some trouble. They won't carry the starry-eyed cache that LeBron, Kobe, Wade, etc did, from the refs or other teams.

Part of the reason McGee is there though is because in China, the US struggled because it didn't have enough pure size, both in height and in bulk (that's from Fratello and others, not me). Yao, the Gasol brothers, and others bothered the US with their size. Yao's not going, and neither is Pau, but even so I don't think the US coaches want to get caught um, short, again.

If they did take McGee, they would likely constrain his responsibilities. But there's no question, especially in short spurts, that he could change the nature of the game with his shot-blocking and athleticism. By the same token that you mentioned of not necessarily facing a lot of high-flyers to defend, I don't know if there will be too many players who will be able to prevent him from going over the top for a lob if he has a clear path.

But I do agree with what you're saying that at this point he's behind most of the rest of the guys they'll be taking in his understanding of hoops. Again, not picking on him. Some of it is on him, some of it is just lack of experience, and some is 3 coaches in 2 years.

Posted by: ts35 | July 22, 2010 12:18 AM | Report abuse

Robin Lopez has a strong game nationally televised and now suddenly he's a defensive anchor that's a clear choice over Mcgee. The Suns gave up 105pts every night, 5th worst in the league.


Posted by: divi3 | July 22, 2010 12:23 AM | Report abuse

You and your butt kissers (ts35 etal), Ed Tapscott and Flip Saunders seem to be the only people watching NBA basketball that
have such a negative opinion of Javale's skill set.

Posted by: NewManagement

I don't have a negative opinion of his skill set. I just think he's still a work in progress, what's wrong with that?

Meanwhile the actual professional guys that you mention, Flip and Etaps, etc. are the guys who actually see him and work with him every day, as opposed to seeing him in Summer League or on ESPN highlights, or maybe one game as most of the external commentators do. I guarantee you that everyone who watches McGee play a lot will come away with the same impression....tons of athletic ability, tons of potential, but still a ways to go in his development. Personally I don't see a problem with saying that.


Posted by: ts35 | July 22, 2010 12:27 AM | Report abuse

"Part of the reason McGee is there though is because in China, the US struggled because it didn't have enough pure size, both in height and in bulk (that's from Fratello and others, not me). Yao, the Gasol brothers, and others bothered the US with their size."

True, but that just underscores my point. If they're considering McGee because they need to match up with other teams' big, physical players, then they're in trouble, because we already know that McGee struggles to defend those kinds of players. Not much reason to think he'd be any more successful at it overseas than he is here, esp. since some of the players he'd likely to face in international play are the same ones he struggles with in the NBA.

Posted by: kalo_rama | July 22, 2010 12:32 AM | Report abuse

Robin Lopez has a strong game nationally televised and now suddenly he's a defensive anchor that's a clear choice over Mcgee. The Suns gave up 105pts every night, 5th worst in the league.

Posted by: divi3

Again, it's more like apples and oranges. RLo plays a more physical style and is (likely) more familiar with the sets that they will be running.

He's also, imo, a 'smarter' basketball player than McGee right now, which may be part of his appeal. Defense can be about being athletic enough to block every shot, but it's also about being fundamentally sound and your teammates being able to trust that you're where you're supposed to be.

Not saying it's guaranteed that RLo does that better than McGee, but it would be my guess, just based on a more stable bball background if nothing else.

You know I'm not a fan of the stat, but you could always look up their opponents stats at 82games.com :)

Ultimately if a choice came down to those two, my guess it would be based more on their style and what they bring to the table that way.

Posted by: ts35 | July 22, 2010 12:39 AM | Report abuse

McGee couldn't get off the bench last season until the Wizards got rid of Haywood. Now he's gonna be on Team USA? What am I missing here?

Posted by: randysbailin | July 22, 2010 12:40 AM | Report abuse

Plus, the Suns gave up 105, but at least they scored 110. The Wiz gave up 101, but scored 96. I don't know if that particular stat is working in your favor.

Posted by: ts35 | July 22, 2010 12:42 AM | Report abuse

"He's also, imo, a 'smarter' basketball player than McGee right now, which may be part of his appeal. Defense can be about being athletic enough to block every shot, but it's also about being fundamentally sound and your teammates being able to trust that you're where you're supposed to be."

I think that, more often than not, it's much more about the latter than the former. The best guys can do a bit of both, but if they had to choose only one I'd guess that most coaches would go for the fundamentally sound guy.

Posted by: kalo_rama | July 22, 2010 12:43 AM | Report abuse

True, but that just underscores my point. If they're considering McGee because they need to match up with other teams' big, physical players, then they're in trouble, because we already know that McGee struggles to defend those kinds of players. Not much reason to think he'd be any more successful at it overseas than he is here, esp. since some of the players he'd likely to face in international play are the same ones he struggles with in the NBA.

Posted by: kalo_rama

Some teams would have those kinds of players, some wouldn't. Yao's not going. Bogut's not going. Pau's not going. Okur's not going. Dirk's not going. Especially in the early rounds, some players he would be able to dominate essentially as he did in Summer League, just by athletically overwhelming them. Plus, he doesn't have to match-up with all of them. If they're playing Spain, they can match Brook with Marc Gasol.

Also, most players / teams tend to have better success against McGee the second or third time they face him. Even if they've seen tape, the first time guys face him, his ability to get to shots most can't definitely affects shooters.

Suffice to say three things. One, some very smart basketball people (much smarter about hoops than either of us) thought there was some value in having him there, despite likely understanding his limitations. Two, he hasn't been picked to be on the 12-man roster yet. Three, if he does get picked, he will get picked by some very smart coaches who will have seen first-hand what he can and can't do, and will likely have a good idea of how to use him.

Posted by: ts35 | July 22, 2010 12:55 AM | Report abuse

"Robin Lopez has a strong game nationally televised and now suddenly he's a defensive anchor that's a clear choice over Mcgee. The Suns gave up 105pts every night, 5th worst in the league.

Posted by: divi3 | July 22, 2010 12:23 AM


"Plus, the Suns gave up 105, but at least they scored 110. The Wiz gave up 101, but scored 96. I don't know if that particular stat is working in your favor.

Posted by: ts35 | July 22, 2010 12:42 AM

That plus the fact that Lopez only averaged 19 mpg last season, barely 3 more than McGee. So if he's gonna judge Lopez based solely on his entire team's numbers, despite his own limited role, and claim that he's over-rated, then that argument has to cut both ways regarding his frequent predictions of McGee's impending stardom. (And that's not even touching on the inherent straw-mannishness of his argument, since no one said word one about Lopez being a "defensive anchor.")

Besides, if you you're gonna randomly throw out team stats as a judge of an individual player's impact, then you've got to take this one into consideration:

Suns: 55-27, 2nd in the West Conference, 10-6 in the playoffs, reached the conf. finals.

Wizards: 26-56, 2nd last in the East, won the lottery.

Posted by: kalo_rama | July 22, 2010 12:59 AM | Report abuse

McGee couldn't get off the bench last season until the Wizards got rid of Haywood. Now he's gonna be on Team USA? What am I missing here?

Posted by: randysbailin

Honestly randy, whether or not they think they can use him this go-around, I think they see the potential, and want to make sure he feels like he's part of the USAB 'family'.

Since Colangelo came on board, they've done a great job of requiring players to make commitments to USAB, but also in making them feel like they're part of something real and something bigger.

Remember a while back when they were starting to have problems getting firm commitments from players to play and when they would show up? Was it 2002/2006 that were debacles? Certainly not that way anymore.

Not only have they established a clear program that starts with the youngsters, but based off of that, they probably get a clearer idea of who's going to be interested in participating going forward.

I do notice that there seems to be a lot of talent not included. Some of that I'm sure is based on style, but part of it I'm sure is also based on personality and commitment level.

Posted by: ts35 | July 22, 2010 1:06 AM | Report abuse

"Suffice to say three things. One, some very smart basketball people (much smarter about hoops than either of us) thought there was some value in having him there, despite likely understanding his limitations. Two, he hasn't been picked to be on the 12-man roster yet. Three, if he does get picked, he will get picked by some very smart coaches who will have seen first-hand what he can and can't do, and will likely have a good idea of how to use him."

Smart basketball people who know a lot more about hoops than either of us also signed Amare Stoudemire to an uninsurable $100 mill contract, gave 4 years worth of guaranteed money to Darko and Amir, traded for Al Jefferson's bloated contract following a down year after knee surgery, and gave a max deal to career underachiever Chris Bosh. Smart basketball people who know a lot more about hoops than either of us routinely make big blunders when it comes to evaluating big men.

Posted by: kalo_rama | July 22, 2010 1:06 AM | Report abuse

"Robin Lopez has a strong game nationally televised and now suddenly he's a defensive anchor that's a clear choice over Mcgee. The Suns gave up 105pts every night, 5th worst in the league.

Posted by: divi3 | July 22, 2010 12:23 AM


"Plus, the Suns gave up 105, but at least they scored 110. The Wiz gave up 101, but scored 96. I don't know if that particular stat is working in your favor.

Posted by: ts35 | July 22, 2010 12:42 AM

That plus the fact that Lopez only averaged 19 mpg last season, barely 3 more than McGee. So if he's gonna judge Lopez based solely on his entire team's numbers, despite his own limited role, and claim that he's over-rated, then that argument has to cut both ways regarding his frequent predictions of McGee's impending stardom. (And that's not even touching on the inherent straw-mannishness of his argument, since no one said word one about Lopez being a "defensive anchor.")

Besides, if you you're gonna randomly throw out team stats as a judge of an individual player's impact, then you've got to take this one into consideration:

Suns: 55-27, 2nd in the West Conference, 10-6 in the playoffs, reached the conf. finals.

Wizards: 26-56, 2nd last in the East, won the lottery.

Posted by: kalo_rama | July 22, 2010 1:11 AM | Report abuse

Smart basketball people who know a lot more about hoops than either of us routinely make big blunders when it comes to evaluating big men.

Posted by: kalo_rama

And none of those guys mentioned (Walsh, Kahn, etc) are currently selecting for USAB. Plus, the USAB is a pure, can-he-play, can-he-not-play evaluation where caps, luxury tax and all the rest of the contract issues don't factor in. Which simplifies the decisions greatly.

Plus, don't forget that he's played for the Select team before, so they've seen him in person before.

And I'm sorry "career underachiever Chris Bosh"?? Let's not go there. I have a feeling we'd go round and round on that one.

Posted by: ts35 | July 22, 2010 1:20 AM | Report abuse

"And none of those guys mentioned (Walsh, Kahn, etc) are currently selecting for USAB. Plus, the USAB is a pure, can-he-play, can-he-not-play evaluation where caps, luxury tax and all the rest of the contract issues don't factor in. Which simplifies the decisions greatly."

Nice try, but we both know that has diddly to do with my point. You invoked "smart basketball people" as a reason for optimism. I simply gave one (of innumerable examples) of smart basketball people making questionable decisions. Happens all the time. The fact that the people behind USAB are "smart basketball people" doesn't make them any more immune to lapses in decision-making than any other "smart basketball people."

"Plus, don't forget that he's played for the Select team before, so they've seen him in person before."

Every GM who overpays for an athletic FA big man with "potential" only to have him fail to meet that potential and sit like a lump on their salary cap has seen that player before in person. Also, many of the players on the 04 Olympic team that got embarrassed were also on previous USAB teams. So the people putting together that team had "seen them before" too. They still turned out to be poor choices, didn't they?

"And I'm sorry "career underachiever Chris Bosh"?? Let's not go there. I have a feeling we'd go round and round on that one."

He's an extremely talented, legitimate all-star caliber player whose output, while statistically impressive, has pretty consistently failed to have the kind of impact a guy with his talent should. Not saying he should have carried the Raptors to a title, but he's played on some teams that should have been able to stumble into the playoffs in the East and didn't, or should have at least been able to win a game or two when they did get there and didn't. For a guy with as much ink and hype as he gets, that's underachieving. Honestly, I don't see how anyone can argue with that. (Although I feel confident you'll try nonetheless.)

Posted by: kalo_rama | July 22, 2010 1:41 AM | Report abuse

"So if he's gonna judge Lopez based solely on his entire team's numbers, despite his own limited role, and claim that he's over-rated, then that argument has to cut both ways regarding his frequent predictions of McGee's impending stardom."

I'm not saying he's overrated, I'm saying you watched one game against the Lakers and are now talking up his defensive prowess and reliability as obvious reasons why he should be chosen over Mcgee. In truth he has plenty of holes in his game, he's only 22 afterall. The ability to sprint the floor Javale displayed in summer league could make him an atttractive option given the guards on this team.

"..while putting up functionally meaningless (albeit impressive) numbers playing big minutes and putting up lots of shots on a terrible team.

Posted by: kalo_rama | July 22, 2010 12:03 AM"

Why bring Brook Lopez into the discussion?

Posted by: divi3 | July 22, 2010 8:40 AM | Report abuse

"But to the original point, the presence of McGee, RLopez and specifically Chandler, do speak to a current lack of veteran depth at the Center position in American hoops.Posted by: ts35"

It's a valid question: is there any less depth at the 5 position than there usually is? Among US players, I mean.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 22, 2010 8:56 AM | Report abuse

This from back in May -- truthaboutit on McGee's defensive shortcomings:

http://www.truthaboutit.net/2010/05/scanning-javale-mcgee%E2%80%99s-barcode-tattoo-part-2.html

Posted by: Samson151 | July 22, 2010 9:05 AM | Report abuse

Now here's a guy worth signing if you're a talented team that's looking for a push to a a title:

"When [Chris] Paul was quoted a few weeks ago as saying he'd be open to a trade if the Hornets aren't committed to building a championship team, it was only a small hint as to the size of the chasm that exists between the franchise and its cornerstone player. Paul, in fact, has put into motion an aggressive exit strategy that will accelerate in the coming weeks, and his clear intention is to be traded before the start of the 2010-11 season, a person with direct knowledge of his plans told CBSSports.com Wednesday. "He wants out," said the person, who...spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss it publicly."

Posted by: Samson151 | July 22, 2010 9:25 AM | Report abuse

Where should Paul go? Dallas? Orlando? The Knicks? Nets? Portland?

Posted by: Samson151 | July 22, 2010 9:29 AM | Report abuse

Juwan sucks.

Nothing more I can add here. :)

- Ray

Posted by: rmcazz | July 22, 2010 9:29 AM | Report abuse

David Lee is out. McGee's chances of making the roster is slightly better with only 3 other bigs ahead of him Brook, Chandler, and Love. Its up to McGee to show hes better than tyson chandler at receiving lob passes.

Posted by: jefferu | July 22, 2010 9:32 AM | Report abuse

looks like raymond felton might become the 2nd highest paid backup PG in the league!

Posted by: divi3 | July 22, 2010 9:32 AM | Report abuse

This from back in May -- truthaboutit on McGee's defensive shortcomings:

http://www.truthaboutit.net/2010/05/scanning-javale-mcgee%E2%80%99s-barcode-tattoo-part-2.html

Posted by: Samson151 | July 22, 2010 9:05 AM

Normally you'd think post defense isnt quite so critical given the international lane seemed to be designed for the purpose of defending the blocks. However given how many international players are in the league and have schooled Mcgee, you gotta think he'll get posted up just because he's the guy in the game.

I think they are getting towards where they really have to seriously consider him given BLopez's funky back, Chandler's general brittleness, and Love being 6'10"

Posted by: divi3 | July 22, 2010 9:39 AM | Report abuse

I listened to John Thompson interview one of the selections guys yesterday. Yes, he readily admitted that McGee's chances of making the team is enhanced by the absence of guys that were ahead of him. It happens that way in sports sometimes in case some's of yawls don't know.

He also is thrilled at the prospect that McGee can actually make the team. He indicates that the skill set that McGee has can be tremendous benefit to the Team.

His lack of or his inadequate comparisons against players sited here isn't a concern and for that matter do not mean crap.

I don't know why some here are always hell bent on being detractors than realizing that what one has going for himself is really all that matters and in McGee's case, might just be just enough to land him a spot on the Team.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | July 22, 2010 10:36 AM | Report abuse

Right now I'm more interested on the other Howard (Josh) Do we have update on what the Wizards planning to do with him?

Posted by: Dave381 | July 22, 2010 11:24 AM | Report abuse

The fact that the people behind USAB are "smart basketball people" doesn't make them any more immune to lapses in decision-making than any other "smart basketball people."

Absolutely. But you're over-reaching. They didn't bring him in to start, or even to be on the 12-man roster. They brought him in to *compete* to be on the 12-man roster (or maybe not even that). That's it. They just invited him to the camp. The threshold for that decision is obviously lower than the threshold for actually staying on the 12-man roster. So, they saw something they liked, either in the previous select team camps, the regular season, Summer League, what have you, and they said, "We're short on size, let's give the kid a shot." So they bring him in an try him out with the other guys. If he can't hold his own, they send him home. Plus, as I was saying to begin with, the fact that they're bringing in guys like Tyson Chandler speaks to the quality they're dealing with.

But back to the side point about 'smart basketball people'. The point at which a lot of criticism is directed at basketball decision makers these days is partly about who can play and who can't, but just as much about "Why did they give that guy that much money??" Is signing Darko at this point a mistake? For what they need, probably not. But signing him to that contract was the mistake. If you take the financial consequences out of the equation, as is the case with USAB, I would be willing to bet the decision rate improves. It also should go without question that the men currently involved with USAB, specifically Coach K, Boeheim, D'Antoni, McMillan, Colangelo, etc, have forgotten more about basketball and players than you and I will ever know.

WRT the 04 team..that's why they changed the way they were doing things shortly thereafter. Colangelo took over in '05. The problems before then had very much to do with the organization and process. They were just trying to get whatever names they could, and there was a little less thought to putting together a team based on a cohesive strategy.

Posted by: ts35 | July 22, 2010 11:40 AM | Report abuse

"Right now I'm more interested on the other Howard (Josh) Do we have update on what the Wizards planning to do with him?Posted by: Dave381"

Well, he had the surgery on March 16 and rehab was expected to take 6-8 months, which would put him back on the court somewhere between mid-Sept and mid-Nov. He turned 31 in April so that's a factor as well. Howard came into the NBA as a scorer but since matured into something of a defensive ace. The injuries have been a problem for the past two seasons, and he's been on the court only 52 and 35 games, respectively.

With that injury history and the decline in offensive performance, I'm not sure why the Wiz would sign him except that they have no depth at SF and he could come at a bargain-basement price.

Posted by: Samson151 | July 22, 2010 11:46 AM | Report abuse

Vasquez update

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/20/AR2010072005754.html

Posted by: DC_MAN88 | July 21, 2010 5:55 PM

"Good Lord, stop busting the kid, he worked his a off and was a fine tribute to MD Terp BB, he is tough as nails, and slow ---perhaps, but spud webb was short and he did pretty damn good, Wes Unseld was listed at 6-7 he was lucky to be 6-5 and beat the crap out of many elite centers including Kareem, just watch

Posted by: mfowler1 | June 25, 2010 12:35 AM

lmao

Posted by: prescrunk | July 22, 2010 11:53 AM | Report abuse

He's an extremely talented, legitimate all-star caliber player whose output, while statistically impressive, has pretty consistently failed to have the kind of impact a guy with his talent should. Not saying he should have carried the Raptors to a title, but he's played on some teams that should have been able to stumble into the playoffs in the East and didn't, or should have at least been able to win a game or two when they did get there and didn't. For a guy with as much ink and hype as he gets, that's underachieving. Honestly, I don't see how anyone can argue with that. (Although I feel confident you'll try nonetheless.)
Posted by: kalo_rama

Honestly, I think that's a matter of perception or perspective at best. Given the roster ('supporting cast') he's been working with, you could just as easily argue that he has made that team overachieve by even making the playoffs. We will likely find out this year.

And that's as far as I'm going to take it. because I think the concept itself is silly and the prospects for establishing something close to an objective standard for whether he has overachieved or underachieved are nil.

Posted by: ts35 | July 22, 2010 11:58 AM | Report abuse

Now I am not naive enough to believe that deficiencies do not matter in evaluating ones game.

The question though really is that overall, does McGee's deficiencies outweigh his positives?

I guess at this point in McGee's career his detractors might think that they do.

However, when I look at a 7-footer with skills that most/many 7-footers don't have.

McGee can run the floor like a small forward. His shot blocking is superior, even with his overplay, and it will get better.

He can rebound in traffic, and floor positioning is a learned skill

In my opinion, McGee's positives far outweigh his negatives, so to really to keep harping on that is kinda pointless.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | July 22, 2010 12:02 PM | Report abuse

nobody seeing a problem with CP3 trying to force a trade to the defending champs, eastern conference champs or NYK? I mean if bron's move was a sucker move, what is this? CP3 has 2 yrs left on his Hornets contract and is trying to force his way out of N.O. to join up. isn't he a brand jordan guy? I wonder if Mike will come out and blast him too.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 22, 2010 12:28 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: Samson151 | July 22, 2010 11:46 AM | Report abuse

Thanks for the info. I didn't know the injury is that bad. I agree, if they can have him as a bargain level then that will be a good sign up. In any case they will still need another SF / athletic-swingman.

Posted by: Dave381 | July 22, 2010 12:39 PM | Report abuse

I think they are getting towards where they really have to seriously consider him given BLopez's funky back, Chandler's general brittleness, and Love being 6'10"

Posted by: divi3

And I am bit curious why they didn't bring in some of the other C's who are out there. Maybe some combo of character, commitment, style-of-play, etc?

Horford was born in the DR, so I don't know if that plays into it. Noah's dad is French, and he's had a couple of dust-ups. Concerns about Al Jefferson's willingness to be part of a team and his character, or just his style? Kaman too much of a stiff? Trying to think of what other options they might have passed over.

Posted by: ts35 | July 22, 2010 12:44 PM | Report abuse

Nobody labeled CP3 the next Jordan or wants to list him in the pantheon of the greatest players to ever play the game at this point in his career.

Are the Lebron lovers that sensitive right now? It's cool, he just isn't on that level. Maybe once he (and his followers) embrace that, people will let him be just a great athlete for his time. Learn from A-Rod (without the steroids, of course).

Posted by: psps23 | July 22, 2010 12:52 PM | Report abuse

Micheal wants to be known as the greatest player of all times. He had hoodwinked many to believe it as well. When the league starts to make rules to stop you like they did Chamberlain, then I'll rate him a strong third behind Magic Johnson.

As for someone who commented earlier- please do not mention Kirk (the hacker) Hinrich in the same breath with a proven NBA player like Arenas. A "D" League player- yes, but not a skilled player like Gil. However, I guess I'll have to root for Kirk now that he is a Wizard. Go Wizards 2010-2011

Posted by: esmith4 | July 22, 2010 1:05 PM | Report abuse

nobody seeing a problem with CP3 trying to force a trade to the defending champs, eastern conference champs or NYK

Didn't the trade rumors initially come from the owner? I thought Shinn was threating to trade Paul if he didn't get the price he wanted for the franchise.

Posted by: djnnnou | July 22, 2010 1:14 PM | Report abuse

Horford was born in the DR, so I don't know if that plays into it. Noah's dad is French, and he's had a couple of dust-ups. Concerns about Al Jefferson's willingness to be part of a team and his character, or just his style? Kaman too much of a stiff? Trying to think of what other options they might have passed over.


Horford plays for the DR team. Noah is with France, and Kaman has already played for Germany. I did see Jefferson's name of an earlier list of invitees. His knee may be keeping him out this year.

Posted by: djnnnou | July 22, 2010 1:23 PM | Report abuse

That's right, I forgot Kaman played for Germany.

Posted by: ts35 | July 22, 2010 1:28 PM | Report abuse

Howard is a bum, and Miami should have gotten him the first time, he was NOT worth the money then who knows what he is worth now.

Since Pat Riley is collecting questionable goods these days.. Can we give them the shoe-crapper too?

Let's get rid of all knuckle - heads and malcontents on Washington sports teams.
Get the guys who just show up and play win or lose, don't rip us off and make use sit through your bad behavior and selfishness.. while you get paid for B/S

No More Bums Please.

Posted by: Tobor58 | July 22, 2010 1:33 PM | Report abuse

Nobody labeled CP3 the next Jordan or wants to list him in the pantheon of the greatest players to ever play the game at this point in his career.

Are the Lebron lovers that sensitive right now? It's cool, he just isn't on that level. Maybe once he (and his followers) embrace that, people will let him be just a great athlete for his time. Learn from A-Rod (without the steroids, of course).

Posted by: psps23 | July 22, 2010 12:52 PM | Report abuse

so it's ok to act like this as long as you're not LBJ. I get it i just wanted to be clear. I have never said or acted like i wasn't a Lebron fan; it's just crazy that it's cool for Bosh to leave and join Wade, cool for CP3 to force a trade to the defending champs or the defending eastern conferenc champs and some type of abomination for Bron to go to Sobe. If it's wrong just cuz he's Lebron i can understand your hatin.........er logic.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 22, 2010 1:34 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: psps23 | July 22, 2010 12:52 PM | Report abuse

and for the last time, i believe that most people compare him to Magic. The Jordan comparison's come from the fact that every "Next Big Thing" is the next jordan Kobe,VC,Lebron. CP3 was hand picked by jordan to represent his brand. Don't treat him like he's chopped liver. He's an all star guard who doesn't think he can win on his current team so he's trying to force his was out of that situation to one where he'll have an easier road ie LA,ORL. i think it's more if a punk move than being a FA and choosing your team, it's just my opinion. i asked for yours so i'm not trippin if we disagree.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 22, 2010 1:45 PM | Report abuse

and i don't know if you've heard, but even with the roids, A-Rod is very well regarded in baseball circles, maybe not gossip columns, but i've heard he's pretty good.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 22, 2010 1:49 PM | Report abuse

so it's ok to act like this as long as you're not LBJ. I get it i just wanted to be clear. I have never said or acted like i wasn't a Lebron fan; it's just crazy that it's cool for Bosh to leave and join Wade, cool for CP3 to force a trade to the defending champs or the defending eastern conferenc champs and some type of abomination for Bron to go to Sobe. If it's wrong just cuz he's Lebron i can understand your hatin.........er logic.

Posted by: lilhollywood10

CP3 will get due flak for it, just like Kobe did when Kobe was making noise about trying to get out of LA (remember the cell phone video?)

The one difference I see is that no one else went around trying to market their free agent tour. Bosh talked about how excited he was to talk to other teams. LeBron talked about creating a different shoe for each team's pitch. And did a one-hour special on ESPN to annouce 'The Decision'. Among a lot of other nonsense. I think if LeBron had played it *at all* low-key, people would have been disappointed but would have taken it better. LeBron and his people (with ESPN and every other media outlet being complicit) are the ones who turned it into a circus and have to reap the negative along with the positive.

Posted by: ts35 | July 22, 2010 1:57 PM | Report abuse

Whoa, when did I ever say it was wrong for Lebron to change teams?

I do think it was wrong for him to hold an hour-long special on ESPN to tell his hometown fans that he's bolting for greener pastures, but that's a different story.

As for the mere act of changing teams, I never ripped him for that. And for that matter, neither did Jordan or Magic. Both of those guys simply pointed out the fact that neither of them would have contemplated it due to their highly competitive nature. And sorry if it stings, but that's the truth. He will never be Jordan or Magic for this reason.

And CP3 will end up getting plenty of hate from his franchise, and he's already getting plenty of flack from other fans around the league for his request.

"so it's ok to act like this as long as you're not LBJ."

No, you've got it mixed up. It would be okay for LBJ to act like this if he wasn't branding himself the "King" and trying to join or surpass Jordan and Magic as one of if not the greatest ever. He isn't. If he embraces that fact and accepts that he's just another superstar, people would be fine with him.

But yes, you're right, I do hate Lebron. I won't hide from it. I hate his pompous attitude, I hate fake persona, I hate that he has no style of his own, I hate his holier-than-thou attitude on the court, and I hate his fake antics. He's the antithesis of an admirable competitor. If he was at least genuine about who he is, I could actually like him (like Shaq). But he isn't. Dude's a poser, and he's been called out through the national media. I'm just glad I'm not one of the few that see him this way now.

Posted by: psps23 | July 22, 2010 2:15 PM | Report abuse

"and i don't know if you've heard, but even with the roids, A-Rod is very well regarded in baseball circles, maybe not gossip columns, but i've heard he's pretty good.

Posted by: lilhollywood10"

Yes, that's my point. Learn from A-Rod. Nobody says Lebron is less than a great player.

Posted by: psps23 | July 22, 2010 2:17 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 22, 2010 1:34 PM | Report abuse

Difference is, Cleveland wanted to build a championship around LBJ and he left them. Hornets are trying to shed everyone's contract...they are trying to get cheaper. With that reasoning, it's justified.

Posted by: merajc86 | July 22, 2010 2:18 PM | Report abuse

Difference is, Cleveland wanted to build a championship around LBJ

Posted by: merajc86 | July 22, 2010 2:18 PM | Report abuse

really who'd they put around him that was championship caliber? Mo Williams as "Robin"? and you blame him for wanting an upgrade.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | July 22, 2010 2:40 PM | Report abuse

If John Nash had signed Juwan to the market contract he wanted (and deserved by the way) from the start there never would have been any drama in 1996.

Howard would have been locked up for 4 years on a reasonable deal instead of the one he eventually got.

Nash was a pretty bad GM. He certainly ranks behind Bobby Ferry and Ernie IMO.

Posted by: elfreako | July 21, 2010 11:01 AM

Nice point. Pollin did not want to abide by the rookie pay scale so it would not have mattered how early Wes set his alarm or if he had been outside of Juwan's door Nash & Pollin had blew it.

Posted by: anacostia85 | July 23, 2010 1:53 PM | Report abuse

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