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John Wall, Wizards bounce back from rough first half to beat Cleveland


John Wall zipped inside, flipped up a shot and watched it hit the backboard and bound off the front of the rim. He drove into the lane again, leaned to the side and tried to find the right spot off the backboard again, only hit the ground as he missed. He had an open pull-up and missed badly. He got the ball late in the shot clock and fired a desperation heave that hit the glass and led to a violation.

His shot wasn't dropping, the offense was sputtering, and Wall was getting frustrated. "It was tough," Wall said. "I was like, 'Dang, I can't keep missing all these easy shots.' I just said, 'Forget it, do what comes best to help my team.' "

Wall missed his first nine shots against the Cleveland Cavaliers on Thursday at Quicken Loans Arena, and was getting outplayed by Daniel "Boobie" Gibson in the first half (as Wall shot 0-for-8). The Wizards trailed by three at halftime of gruesomely awful preseason game in which the teams combined for 67 first-half points. But Coach Flip Saunders told the rookie in the locker room that could influence the game in more ways than his scoring, warning him not to "get carried away."

Wall came out with a different game plan in the second half, looking to set up his teammates, not forcing the action, and he helped guide the Wizards to their second win in the exhibition schedule, 97-83, over the new-look Cavaliers, who were playing without former Wizard Antawn Jamison. He finished with 12 points, nine assists, three steals and two blocked shots.

"It's a learning experience," Wall said. "I told everybody it's going to be up and down. I had a good game the other day, and this one is just an average game, a C, C-, or a D. I'll just learn from it. It's going to be some nights, I'm going to have bad shooting nights. I just got to do some things to help my team win."

The game turned for Wall on the defensive end, as he sent a Gibson layup attempt into the front row and immediately deflected Gibson's three-point attempt that resulted in a shot-clock violation. Saunders likes to say that Wall could be like Gary Payton defensively, and Wall offered a glimpse, when thought Cleveland's Danny Green had thrown an elbow at him and got upset. Wall dropped down in the defensive stance and used his long reach to bat away the ball. He would've scored on the other end if the ball hadn't slipped from his hands as he elevated for the layup.

Kirk Hinrich helped get Wall in the scoring column when he found Wall racing up the court for a fastbreak layup. Wall guided the ball off the glass and into hoop with two hands with 3 minutes, 15 seconds left in the third quarter. "That's all I needed -- was to see the ball go through the basket," Wall said. "I just kept the tempo going from there."

Wall finished at 5 of 7 shooting the rest of the game. He showed his electrifying speed late in the third period, as he grabbed a rebound under the basket, dribbled the length of the court in less than six seconds and made a layup, just the way Saunders drew it up. "That's exactly how I called it," Saunders said with a smile. "Get it to the fastest guy and let him go. Shoot it off the glass and count it."

His explosiveness and speed was evident to everyone watching."He's pretty quick," Cavaliers Coach Byron Scott said. "When he gets in the open floor, he's a blur. He gets to the basket and seems to have a real good feel for the game. His perimeter shot is something he is going to have to work on, but you can tell that he's going to be a great player."


See, I can do other things. (AP Photo)

Wall came one assist shy of a double-double for the second game in a row. "I'm trying to get 10 [assists], but as long we keep getting the W, that's all that matters, but it'll be good to see 10 on that board."

His turnaround coincided with the Wizards returning to form after seeming out of sorts in the first half. The ball movement and high energy play that highlighted the win in Dallas was absent as the players started out settling for lazy jumpers and one-on-one play. Andray Blatche struggled early, as he shot just 3 of 10 in the first half. After he took a pull-up jumper early in the clock, Saunders called Blatche over and begged him to make the extra pass, "Dray, swing it," he shouted. "Swing it."

The Wizards shared the ball better in the second half, with Gilbert Arenas finding Blatche on the break for the play of the game, as Blatche dropped a hammer dunk on Ryan Hollins's head. They finished with 25 assists on 38 made baskets, with just 14 turnovers.

Arenas didn't speak to reporters after the game, but an underplayed storyline was that it was his first time back in Cleveland since he got suspended indefinitely on his birthday, Jan. 6. He was with the team that night, but stayed behind in a hotel, when LeBron James declared the Wizards-Cavaliers officially over. On Thursday, Arenas had a quiet 13 points, connecting on 5 of 11 shots in 28 minutes. In his first two preseason games, Arenas has scored 25 points on 10 of 20 shooting, looking more efficient with less ball-handling responsibilities.

Another underplayed storyline was the presence of Cedric Jackson, who is attempting to make the Cavaliers' roster. Jackson finished last season with the Wizards, and his game-winning jumper in the season finale against Indiana actually put the team in position to acquire the lottery combination that landed Wall.

Yi Jianlian led the team in scoring with 16 points on 7 of 11 shooting and played well for the second game in a row. With Hilton Armstrong out with a sore right shoulder, the 7-foot Yi was forced to see some action at center, but he proved versatile enough to play any frontcourt position. He is probably the Wizards' most active player on the glass. "He's playing with a ton of confidence," Saunders said about Yi, who added seven rebounds, four assists and a blocked shot.

Yi had a nasty two-handed dunk that resulted in a three-point play, but he also made his lone three-point attempt, which banged off the glass. A fan seated by the Wizards' bench shouted, "You've got to call that!"
Yi had already made it down the court, so Saunders did it for Yi. "Bank," Saunders said to the fan and the two laughed.

Al Thornton looked solid as he scored 13 points in 15 minutes, all in the second half. Saunders told Thornton before the game that he was going to give more players a look, so Thornton was prepared to take the night off. "To be honest, I didn't play the whole first half. So, I really didn't know if I was going to play or not," Thornton said. "But it's just be ready when you're called. I just tried to contribute and help my team."

Thornton had an impressive left-hand layup over two defenders, but laughed as he described the play afterward. "I thought something was wrong with my left hand. I was surprised it went in," he said. "I didn't even see the goal. I just looked at it little bit. I gave you a little Shaq right there."

Saunders decided to let a few different players get some action on Thursday. He got his first look at Adam Morrison and rookies Trevor Booker and Kevin Seraphin. Morrison started out well, as he got a steal, dove to the ground to save a loose ball and hit a baseline jumper. But he missed his last four shots.

Booker started out struggling, as he picked up three fouls, including two charges, in his first four minutes. "I tried to stay aggressive and just play hard," Booker said. "I can't complain about calls. They made a call, I couldn't do nothng but live with."

Booker finally scored when he stole the ball from Manny Harris, dribbled up the floor, made a spin move and a finger roll. He also tipped in a Seraphin miss, pumping his fist in frustration after it went in. "For me, I needed that. My jump shot wasn't falling, so I needed that," he said.

Seraphin played about 10 minutes in his debut. He got the ball shortly after entering the game and quickly was called for traveling as he shuffled his feet in the post. His teammates were anxiously waiting for Seraphin to get a basket, hopping from their seats every time he put up a shot. He missed his first three attempts, but left no doubt on his final attempt, as he took a pass from Booker and dunked with 24 seconds left in the game.

Players immediately hopped from the bench to cheer him on. Yi waved his towel so hard that white strings started flying from it. "He popped his cherry," said Blatche, who finished with 13 points. "It was his first point, it was good for him to get it out of the way and he got it. We all was happy for him."

Saunders said he was pleased to see the enthusiasm from his team on the bench, and on the court. "I liked our energy. I liked our camaraderie," Saunders said. "Our team is very close. They have great camaraderie. They cheer for each other. I like how we defended and guarded."

And Wall liked that they won. "That's good," he said. "It's good to see us getting some wins and coming together as a team. Hopefully it'll lead on to the regular season."

By Michael Lee  | October 8, 2010; 12:05 AM ET
Categories:  Andray Blatche, Flip Saunders, John Wall, Yi Jianlian  
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Next: Antawn Jamison remains positive after failed championship pursuit

Comments

Very encouraging signs so far. Let's see if we can keep it going. Not necessarily looking for wins at this point, but the team is playing awfully well. Defense will be the key all season, and they seem to be buying into it.

Posted by: bpybay | October 8, 2010 6:14 AM | Report abuse

Up and down game for J Wall, glad to see Flip calm him down and let him know not to try to do too much and we have other players that can score. "Getting out played by Boobie Gibson" nothing to worry about, just like the Cavs. They will be out of playoff contention this year, wanna see how we match up against top tier playoff them. Lakers, Boston, Heat!

Posted by: zack5 | October 8, 2010 6:18 AM | Report abuse

So far, it looks like Yi was the steal of the offseason.

Here's one difference between Wall & Young/Success/Failure:

Wall misses his first 5 shots and makes adjustments to finish strong

Young misses first couple shots and pouts and disappears.

That and the fact that Wall has a complete game.

Sorry to see McGee play so poorly. Hopefully he can keep improving.

Posted by: Blurred | October 8, 2010 6:47 AM | Report abuse

Like everyone, I had high hopes for Nick Young. But it's becoming more obvious that the dude doesn't belong on this team. His IQ is zero. Zip. Zilch.

Posted by: tundey | October 8, 2010 7:36 AM | Report abuse

Sorry to see McGee play so poorly. Hopefully he can keep improving.

Posted by: Blurred | October 8, 2010 6:47 AM

6pts and 6rebs in 13mins isnt THAT bad is it? Obviously those fouls mean he was doing something wrong, but at least he was rebounding agressively

Posted by: divi3 | October 8, 2010 7:41 AM | Report abuse

My fingers are crossed that Yi continues to look like one of the steals of the new century.

And it matters because so long as JVM continues to get in foul trouble, we will need to have the fallback option of Blatche and Yi in the front court. Armstrong has not showed much. Seraphin in a couple of seasons away from being serious help and Booker's energy does not make up for his lack of height in the long run. N'diaye merits a look, I suppose, but there has to be a reason why that has not happened yet.

Glad to see I nice line from Thornton, disappointed that NY has not yet proven able to take advantage of his golden (and last) opportunity.

Posted by: khrabb | October 8, 2010 8:21 AM | Report abuse

Basketball skills was never Yi's problem. He just needed to develop a better understanding for the NBA and fit in the right system. Confidence is everything to a player and once you have confidence everything else flows naturally.

Posted by: spades72 | October 8, 2010 8:31 AM | Report abuse

Thanks Blache! (And Lee & post editors for deciding to put in the full quote) - my 7 year old basketball-loving son just asked what "popping a cherry" means. /facepalm.

Posted by: ReginaldSmash | October 8, 2010 8:32 AM | Report abuse

The Wizards could have one of the better backcourts in the league. It all depends on what Arenas brings to the table. If he can accept a secondary role on this team and light it up on the offensive end, combined w/ the emerging superstar, Wall, and Hinrich's outstanding defense and all around game, this 3 guard rotation could be really good. Either Arenas or Hinrich can play the 1, so they have tremendous versatility. All the questions are in the front court and w/ Arenas.

Posted by: randysbailin | October 8, 2010 8:40 AM | Report abuse


From what I saw in the Dallas game, Yi can definitely give us some minutes at center. Success breeds confidence (or is it the oher way around?) and Yi seem like a different player than what he was in Jersey.

Let's see what our young bigs do tonight agains J. Noah and the Bulls. I want to see Blatche drop-step and up-and-under that perpetual smirk off his face!

Posted by: and_1 | October 8, 2010 8:40 AM | Report abuse

Yi may back up both AB and JM, which could be a good development given his skill set. Yes he's not the banging, tough C everybody wants- but a frontline with 2 of those 3 presents it's own matchup issues for other teams to deal with. I swear Yi is even taller than Mcgee....Flip can run a ridiculously long and athletic team.


Posted by: divi3 | October 8, 2010 8:45 AM | Report abuse

Michael Lee, was it necessary to include that off-color quote from Andray Blatche in your article? I'm sure Andray did not mean that for public consumption.

Posted by: bazookajoe1 | October 8, 2010 8:46 AM | Report abuse

C'mon Lee, the paragraph trying to explain Arenas underplayed storyline is pointless. Stop reaching so much and looking back at the past. Give the whole gun incident a break. Enough already

Posted by: spades72 | October 8, 2010 8:46 AM | Report abuse

Right, divi3. Yi's not a banger but he is athletic so he's a threat to block shots on D and he'll spread the offense for our penetrators because opposing bigs have to respect his jumper. I'm still waiting to see Yi, Dray and JaVale on the court at the same time.

Posted by: and_1 | October 8, 2010 8:55 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: and_1 | October 8, 2010 9:04 AM | Report abuse

Reginald - Man, I thought the same thing about putting that cherry quote in there! What is up with that?!

Posted by: authorofpoetry | October 8, 2010 9:07 AM | Report abuse

I'm still waiting to see Yi, Dray and JaVale on the court at the same time.

Posted by: and_1 | October 8, 2010 8:55 AM

Seriously why not? We're always worried about being overmatched at C....how about Flip overwhelm some opposing frontlines with three 7 footers who can all run? If the new Yi is the real Yi, he'll force his way onto the floor. He's kind of a mix of AB and JM. More athletic than AB but not as skilled, less athletic than JM but more skilled. Hard to envision Booker, NY, Seraphin, or Morrison keeping Yi on the bench.

Of course it's just 2 preseason games, but Yi looked great at the Worlds too, so go to that well til it runs dry

Posted by: divi3 | October 8, 2010 9:16 AM | Report abuse

Sheesh, awfully touchy bunch today. One cherry quote and MLee gets it handed to him. I'd guess 95% of readers here are 18+ males. Lighten up, Francis.

Posted by: creativefunk | October 8, 2010 9:21 AM | Report abuse

Lighten up, Francis.

Posted by: creativefunk | October 8, 2010 9:21 AM

LOL One of my all time favorite quotes from "Stripes".

Posted by: and_1 | October 8, 2010 9:27 AM | Report abuse

"Anyone of you touches my stuff, I'll kill ya. Anyone of you homos touches me, I'll kill ya." -- Francis "Psycho" Sawyer

Posted by: randysbailin | October 8, 2010 9:32 AM | Report abuse

Chicago lost again last night, to Dallas, with Caron scoring 14 in the last quarter. Interesting thing was that Noah had 6 assists in 20 minutes on the court. Ronnie Brewer still isn't playing, so Keith Bogans starts.

Posted by: Samson151 | October 8, 2010 9:44 AM | Report abuse

Once again... The best lineup is Jm Ab Yi Kh and Jw until the apparently early return of Jh.
Obviously this will not happen because of the negative ramifications to/from Gilbert.
I am excited however for the team chemistry that is thankfully developing.
Unfortunately Ga is just such a negative threat once again to all the good that is developing.
I like Gil but it is way past time for his unpredictable demeanor to be gone. He will not be able to accept the complementary role that is required of him.

Posted by: mricklen | October 8, 2010 9:51 AM | Report abuse

Yi is one of the better finesse power forwards. He's not going to bang with guys like Amar'e Stoudemire, Kevin Garnett, etc. Yi is too injury prone to mix it up in the low post.

What the Wizards want Yi to do is give us an Antawn Jamison-type game. I believe Yi can grow into that type of player.

Regarding criticism of Nick Young: please remember that the NBA season is 82 games. We have played exactly TWO preseason games. None of the Wizards are in mid-season form. If you know anything about baskeball, you should know not to make any judgements in October. Nick Young will do just fine. That's why Grunfeld kept him.

Just chill out and enjoy the new-look Wiz!

Posted by: musicmanjr | October 8, 2010 9:59 AM | Report abuse

There will be those nights against tough physical frontlines that McGee's going to have foul problems. He's making a big jump, last year before the trades he was in and out of the rotation, this year he's being asked to start.

NBA center is one of the toughest positions in sports, lots of 6'9" plus guys come and go in the league and can't cut it as an NBA center. McGee's stepping into a tough role where he'll be tested every night. I'm assuming there's going to be some ugly ones coming while he's learning on the job. The Wiz are going to have to absorb some of those, depth at center is still probably the biggest concern for this team.

Yi is going to get lots of playing time upfront, it's only preseason, but he's playing with more aggression and is more active down low then I've ever seen him so far. So we'll probably see a lot of Yi and Blatche together, who guards who will depend on the matchups.

Two interesting stats to watch this year for the Wiz. I assume there will be a lot of nights this team gets out rebounded, if the Wiz can offset the rebounding gap by protecting the ball on offense and forcing turnovers on D they could be ok. So basically most nights they will need to force about 10-12 more turnovers then they make to offset their rebounding deficit.

That will be worth keeping an eye on.
With their backcourt and pressure defense they could manage it most nights.

Cleveland is going to play some ugly assed basketball this year, even when they win it won't be pretty. Got to wonder if Jamison won't be featured a lot early in an attempt to move him for future considerations. LeBron really left that club in a mess, Ferry kept making moves to try and build a winner around him, and now they lost a lot in one winter.

I know Grunfeld kept trying to get Hickson in the Jamison deal, another nice active rebounder like Hickson would have been nice to have. He might be Cleveland's most valuable player going forward. Too bad the Wiz couldn't nab him in that deal, he'd been a nice peice to add to the frontline.
GM

Posted by: flohrtv | October 8, 2010 10:03 AM | Report abuse

Yi can erase all them nightmares starring Etan Thomas and Fabricio Oberto. Talking about some good therapy. Yi is it.

Did not see the game but adding what is written to his first game our frontcourt with him puts a whole different look on what can be accomplished this year.

The dependence on McGee just got a serious upgrade with the play of Yi at Center and the primary Big Guy off the bench.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | October 8, 2010 10:06 AM | Report abuse

6pts and 6rebs in 13mins isnt THAT bad is it? Obviously those fouls mean he was doing something wrong, but at least he was rebounding agressively

Posted by: divi3 | October 8, 2010 7:41 AM | Report abuse

It was the fouls that i was thinking of. You can't show your skills if you can't stay on the court and you can't get better if you can't stay on the court.

We all know I am probably jaVale's biggest fan, but he needs to keep working at it.

Posted by: Blurred | October 8, 2010 10:06 AM | Report abuse

Where's the big man coach for JM? Not one mention in the article, eh?

Posted by: stranger_station | October 8, 2010 10:06 AM | Report abuse

Once again... The best lineup is Jm Ab Yi Kh and Jw until the apparently early return of Jh.
Obviously this will not happen because of the negative ramifications to/from Gilbert.
I am excited however for the team chemistry that is thankfully developing.
Unfortunately Ga is just such a negative threat once again to all the good that is developing.
I like Gil but it is way past time for his unpredictable demeanor to be gone. He will not be able to accept the complementary role that is required of him.

Posted by: mricklen | October 8, 2010 9:51 AM |

That lineup might work if the NBA as a whole was a weak league and Gilbert can't really play anymore.

But since it seems that Gilbert can really ball again at a star level and the NBA is not a weak league, then MRICHLEN that is just wishful thinking on your part to justify this team can be good without Gilbert.

Keep Wishing that. Maybe the fairy God Mothers will hear you.

I'm wishing on a Star.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | October 8, 2010 10:12 AM | Report abuse

So basically most nights they will need to force about 10-12 more turnovers then they make to offset their rebounding deficit.

That will be worth keeping an eye on.
With their backcourt and pressure defense

Posted by: flohrtv | October 8, 2010 10:03 AM | Report abuse

I +10 turnover rate aseems ludicrisly high. has any team EVER had a +10 or more turnover rate for a season?

I am not saying impossible, but I just can't imagine it.

Posted by: Blurred | October 8, 2010 10:13 AM | Report abuse

Also the Wiz will run a plus on blocks most night too. That will help level out the number of total possessions.

Just tell your kid that popping a cherry meant that Seraphin got rewarded by popping a Cherry Doctor Pepper after the game. How you explain what's going on with the Kiss tongue waggle, you're on your own...
GM

Posted by: flohrtv | October 8, 2010 10:18 AM | Report abuse

Didn't get to watch the Wiz last night, but I did watch some of NJ / Bos. Based on what I saw, JaVale is going to foul out in the first quarter against Brook Lopez. Not because I'm saying Brook is awesome and JaVale sucks, because I'm not. JaVale will foul out because Lopez got a ridiculous number of calls last night. And that was against the Celtics, a good team with a good defensive rep.

Lopez went to the line 10 times...in the first half. He played 25 mins and got to the line 15 times. If the refs are inclined to give Lopez that kind of love versus Garnett, Shaq etc, I can only imagine what they're going to give him versus JaVale and the Wiz. Ridiculous.

Posted by: ts35 | October 8, 2010 10:28 AM | Report abuse

Regarding criticism of Nick Young: please remember that the NBA season is 82 games. We have played exactly TWO preseason games. None of the Wizards are in mid-season form. If you know anything about baskeball, you should know not to make any judgements in October. Nick Young will do just fine. That's why Grunfeld kept him.

Just chill out and enjoy the new-look Wiz!

Posted by: musicmanjr

The problem for NY is that it's not just two preseason games....it's 3 years and two preseason games. The more pressing problem for him is that he's at a position where they have a lot of options, including the looming return of a potentially high-quality vet in J Howard. So if he doesn't show up now, he may not get a lot of opportunities later.

Based only on his stats from last night, it looks like he played a bit better? 2-5 from 3, and a trip to the line. Was any of that in the heart of the game, or only late in relative garbage time?

Posted by: ts35 | October 8, 2010 10:34 AM | Report abuse

About Nick Young, it is a mistake to keep him. Grunfield really needs to move him for the best player they can get that fits into what Flip's want to do on the court.

Besides inconsistent playing time, I think the real reason that Young continues to dissappoint is all about what Flip wants him to do on the court.

It isn't any secret that Flip want's Young to be effective without the ball. He want's him to be a catch and shoot, run of the screen and shoot kind of guy.

That isn't Young's game. Nick Young isn't a fit for this system simply because he really needs to handle the and be free to make his own play at times.

Flip isn't incoporating that style of play for Nick Young in his gameplan. Gilbert Arenas will still do some of that, only because of his superior talent.

There isn't any room on this team for Nick to consistently do what he can do well.

With Flip in charge they have to trade Nick Young. Grunfield may want to keep him because he knows that Nick has some game, but in Flip's system, it is a mistake to keep him.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | October 8, 2010 10:36 AM | Report abuse

This looks like the beginning of a good team. I've got to tip my hat to
Mr. Leonsis for putting together this group. They'll only get better and better each night out.

Posted by: carterm1 | October 8, 2010 10:38 AM | Report abuse


This looks like the beginning of a good team. I've got to tip my hat to
Mr. Leonsis for putting together this group. They'll only get better and better each night out.

Posted by: carterm1 | October 8, 2010 10:38 AM

Yeah, Leonsis is a great GM.

Posted by: harrybalz | October 8, 2010 10:42 AM | Report abuse

Nick Young isn't a fit for this system simply because he really needs to handle the and...

handle the ball...

Oops.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | October 8, 2010 10:43 AM | Report abuse

It probably won't need to be 10+ in just turnovers, I should have said I was considering turnovers + blocks. But Wall does give the Wiz a dimension that few teams are going to have an easy answer for. He's got the ability to get to a lot of balls and deflect them.

I also expect to see the Wiz run some traps and double teams to disrupt other team's offenses. And with Hinrich, Gil, and Wall thet should be able to protect the ball well on offense.

The NBA doesn't list a block as a turnover, but I was always taught to consider a block the same as a turnover when looking at stats. So we always added turnovers and blocks together and compared the total looking for a total plus/minus defensive stat.

I know that's not 100% accurate because not all blocks result in a turnover. But we used blocks and turnovers together as defensive stats to encourage defense.

If you can't out rebound a team, you have to coach for other ways to limit their shots. I'd imagine that Flip's going to try and force turnovers, limit field goal percentage, look for a plus of 2-3 blocks per game, and try and keep the rebounding deficit as low as possible.

There are just going to be a lot of nights that he's going to have to look for ways to makeup a rebounding deficit with this group.

Of course another way to win is to out shoot your opponent, but you can't just hope for that every night when you have a lot of jump shooters. That's why I think the Wiz will have to run as much as they can to be in a lot of games.
GM

Posted by: flohrtv | October 8, 2010 10:48 AM | Report abuse

Anyone see Wilbon's Column calling for the Wizards to move Arenas? The Post has since taken it down.

Strange. Maybe Ted or Gilbert got to him and asked him to remove it. Does Michael Lee or the Post want to comment on this???

Posted by: dominic10464 | October 8, 2010 10:48 AM | Report abuse

If the Wiz hold the Bulls under 100 tonight, I think it's safe to say the overall team defense has improved.

3 straight opponents under 100 all on the road? That would be impressive.

Posted by: elfreako | October 8, 2010 10:58 AM | Report abuse

Popping his cherry! LOL!!!

Posted by: jimwest20 | October 8, 2010 11:02 AM | Report abuse

All of JMs fouls were on Hickson, every single one. Was he beating AB/Yi and JM was left to try and clean up? Or was this a case of JM overreacting like he's known to do? Didnt see the game, so who knows, but he's got to stay out of foul trouble.

Of course, it's preseason and perhaps he's trying set an aggressive tone for the year. By the same token, I hope ABs many long Js last night was just an attempt to work the rust off his shot

Posted by: divi3 | October 8, 2010 11:14 AM | Report abuse

also, gotta wonder how much of the new Yi is a product of JWall. Not that Yi wasnt ballin all summer, but if Wall is already making others better the sky really is the limit for this kid

Posted by: divi3 | October 8, 2010 11:16 AM | Report abuse

Anyone can see from a distance that Flip Saunders is only asking Nick Young to be a marginal role player at best.

Sure it has only been two games but the writing is on the wall.

The fact that Flip started out with a 3-guard offense means that 1) Kirk Hindrich is a major player in Flip's scheme, and 2) that he has no intention of seeing whether Nick Young can play the Three position. He may already know that Nick cannot, but if that is really the case then Nick has no role here.

If Nick can play the three but isn't being looked at to do it or isn't being used in practice that way, then why do we need Nick here?

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | October 8, 2010 11:22 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: Blurred | October 8, 2010 11:22 AM | Report abuse

Some Wiz-Cavs highlights. It always makes me mad how the games arent televised but they still record it. Then why not let us see it then?

http://www.nba.com/wizards/video/originals/

Posted by: dlts2041 | October 8, 2010 11:24 AM | Report abuse


9 assists two straight games for Wall despite some cold outside shooting by some of our primary scorers. The kid is the real deal.

Looks like GMs around the league have taken notice of our Wiz kids. They think the Wiz have the second-best chance to be most improved (behind the Heat).

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2010/10/8/1738371/nba-gms-wizards-will-improve-and-john-wall-will-win-rookie-of-the-year#comments

Posted by: harrybalz | October 8, 2010 11:25 AM | Report abuse

It will be very interesting to see if they let Gil play on a back to back but its Preseason so they may just sit guys anyways. I think they will want to see Wall vs Rose, McGee vs Noah, and Kirk against his former team moreso than anything else.

I actually hope Flip starts everyone again tomorrow because most of the times when teams have a game like we did today and still win, they will look way better the next day. I think we will look great if Flip plays everyone. I think both Wall & Gil will have great games along with Dray

Posted by: dlts2041 | October 8, 2010 11:27 AM | Report abuse

also, gotta wonder how much of the new Yi is a product of JWall. Not that Yi wasnt ballin all summer, but if Wall is already making others better the sky really is the limit for this kid

Posted by: divi3

In the sense that I think everyone is energized by J Wall, sure. But imo, for Yi right now, I think it's a combo of a) someone showing him some love by trading for him, b) the training he did in the offseason, where they worked on his shot and his aggressiveness, c) his experience this summer as the leader of the China team, and d) his shot is pretty much falling right now. Oh, and also e) it's still preseason.

It will be interesting to see if he can maintain his aggression on nights when his shot isn't falling and when the rotations get tighter. Hoping he can. It would represent a great turn in his career and a big bonus for the Wiz. As others have said, it doesn't solve our bulk/strength issues in the paint, but he does (along with AB, JM, Armstrong, etc) give us a whole lot of height and athleticism along the front line.

Added to the questions that I think have been answered already so far in the preseason, I add this: If they can rebound, they can run. This isn't really a revelation, but it's nice to see in practice. The lingering question will be to see if they can rebound (or get enough blocks and turnovers as GM was saying) against the better teams.

Posted by: ts35 | October 8, 2010 11:27 AM | Report abuse


If Nick can play the three but isn't being looked at to do it or isn't being used in practice that way, then why do we need Nick here?

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | October 8, 2010 11:22 AM

Three reasons why Nick is here and on the bench:
1) He has a guaranteed contract.
2) He stinks.
3) Other GMs know it.

Posted by: harrybalz | October 8, 2010 11:29 AM | Report abuse

i listened to the game on the radio and it didn't sound pretty. Both teams had low FG% but cavs had the worse. Was it the our defense that caused the cav's under 40% FG or was it poor execution of a team with no natural leader. I'm gonna look at the cleveland plain dealer for their take. Its funny how spoiled they were and now its all complaints.

Posted by: jefferu | October 8, 2010 11:32 AM | Report abuse

Daniel Gibson will have a better year than John Wall! And the Cavs will make the playoffs, at least one writer thinks so. http://www.lowpostnews.com/cavs/the-mistake-on-the-lake10082010/

I think he's nuts. LOL

Posted by: nay99 | October 8, 2010 11:32 AM | Report abuse

Also, for Flip to be using the three guard offense as a major focus in the absence of Howard may turn out to be a flawed strategy.

Why???

It might be better for the team to develop and give time to Thornton, Young, even Blatche at the three and others more suited for the position. Because, when Gilbert or Wall needs to rest, then who is their primary backup if Hinrich is getting time at the three.

Doesn't this strategy short circuit your available depth chart needlessly?

Isn't Hinrich supposed to be the first guard off the bench? With him at the three then who is it? It certainly isn't Young. This three guard rotation may look good now, but it may cause our rotation off the bench to be ineffective.

The three guard rotation also takes time away now from who should be playing that position in the absence of Howard.

We are going to have to be some running son of a guns using the three guard strategy till Howard returns.

It looks good now but it will kill the natural development and depth of the team.

We have other options, but we have to use them in order for them to become effective.

And if we do use the three guard rotation mostly till Howard returns, the we will have to make a midstream adjustment to reset the offense again. And then when Howard does return, who is his replacement, Hinrich??? If not, then who, then? Whomever that who is should be getting the time now.

Wouldn't it be better now to develop the offense on what it really will look like???

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | October 8, 2010 11:46 AM | Report abuse

Yi, from what I can tell will continue his inspired play. He will get all the chance and playing time to do so. And from where I sit, he should.

Look for Yi to steal a good bit of Yow's thunder. This can only be good for this Washington Team.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | October 8, 2010 11:58 AM | Report abuse

I don't think it's an issue of being overly sensitive about the Blatche quote; it's the inability to understand why Lee would include the quote in his article, other than his obsessive desire to dog Blatche. No way AB intended that quote for publication. So, Lee's either completely clueless or just vulgar and low. If I were these guys, I'd pay the fines and NEVER talk to the media.

Posted by: Fief1 | October 8, 2010 12:02 PM | Report abuse

Three reasons why Nick is here and on the bench:
1) He has a guaranteed contract.
2) He stinks.
3) Other GMs know it.

Posted by: harrybalz | October 8, 2010 11:29 AM

I am unconvinced that somebody out there will not trade us something for Nick Young. Minnesota, Charlotte, the Clips, somebody.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | October 8, 2010 12:02 PM | Report abuse

Wilbon has been terrible for years now, barely follows DC teams- he's a stooge.

If his advice was followed, he'd have spent the whole summer saying we need to draft Demarcus Cousins since we still had the rights to Rubio and had traded Blatche for Joe Smith at the end of the season.

Notice he didnt mention ABs name one time in his column? Said we have to build around Wall, Mcgee, and Yi. But didnt EG just extend Blatche, Mike? No thoughts on how that situation goes against your previous rants? Just a Gil bash for us?

He wont even be able to write about the team by midseason when Gil is playing well and AB is considered a legit PF in the league.

Posted by: divi3 | October 8, 2010 12:04 PM | Report abuse

is tonights game on TV?

Posted by: Blurred | October 8, 2010 12:07 PM | Report abuse

Three reasons why Nick is here and on the bench:
1) He has a guaranteed contract.
2) He stinks.
3) Other GMs know it.

Posted by: harrybalz | October 8, 2010 11:29 AM

I am unconvinced that somebody out there is unwilling to trade us something for Nick Young.

Minnesota, Charlotte, The Clips, somebody.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | October 8, 2010 12:08 PM | Report abuse

I know its on WGN from Chicago

Posted by: G-Man11 | October 8, 2010 12:24 PM | Report abuse

Blatche looks like from the box score had 13 & 7..Not bad but I wonder if the 10 shots Blatche missed were in the paint?

When I watch Blatche he has about 3 or 4 dumb a** plays that can be the difference in alot of games. I mean he will have to play above his head just for this team to be competitive so he can't afford to make those 3 or 4 dumb plays that can cost this team...

Like I keep saying he shoots too many jump shots in my opinion. Yeah when they fall its great but he can't and hopefully wont go 6-16...Then on top of that 3 TO's..

Wish I could've seen the game.

This will be a really good test tonight so let's she what Blatch/McGee shows up..

Posted by: kevenjones | October 8, 2010 12:28 PM | Report abuse


If you have NBA Season Pass, they're carrying it and I think channelsurf.net is going to have it too if you want to watch it online.

Posted by: harrybalz | October 8, 2010 12:30 PM | Report abuse

Wall has been awesome since day 1 and we still havent lost a game yet with him starting in the SL or Preseason but the only thing that has bothered me a little with him in these 2 Preseason games is I think sometimes he is shooting too much. He's still getting alot of assist and running the O but he has to realize that he is our 3rd scoring option and maybe even 4th when Howard gets back.

I definitely want him to be aggressive and he's not just a passing PG but there is no way he should ever go 0-9 in the 1st half. Gil can do that because he is our primary scorer but Wall cant do that. He's supposed to run the team and be a secondary type of scorer. He should be passing it to the scorers 1st, "espically" if he's cold. Other than that he's been awesome. Some of it is Gil's fault for being submissive and less assertive.

If he wont be aggressive then Wall will do what he should be doing and taking his shots. Hopefully Gil steps it up from an aggression standpoint but Wall has to calm down sometimes on looking for his own shot over more proven scores

Posted by: dlts2041 | October 8, 2010 12:30 PM | Report abuse

Don't think we have to confuse Wall's traits with Kwame's traits :)

Posted by: fearturtle44 | October 8, 2010 12:33 PM | Report abuse


Like I keep saying he shoots too many jump shots in my opinion. Yeah when they fall its great but he can't and hopefully wont go 6-16...Then on top of that 3 TO's..

Posted by: kevenjones | October 8, 2010 12:28 PM

He only shoots "too many" jump shots when they're not falling. He's a good shooter who has earned the right to take them, imho. That said, you might want to check your stats. In the Dallas game he made 7 shots in the paint, and you still said he shot too many jumpers. If you're looking for the next Shaq, keep it moving.

Posted by: harrybalz | October 8, 2010 12:34 PM | Report abuse

@harrybalz,

I agree Blatche can shoot. But watch, there will be a point in the game where he will take an ill-advised shot or two, just because he can shoot and it will change the momentum of the game.

Not saying he should not shot the jumper because he has mad skills, but he just needs to develop more of a post game and attack the basket more. Mix that in with his jumpers and stop trying to handle the ball (which he also can do) so much...

Let's see what happens tonight..

Posted by: kevenjones | October 8, 2010 12:39 PM | Report abuse

If you have NBA Season Pass, they're carrying it and I think channelsurf.net is going to have it too if you want to watch it online.

Posted by: harrybalz | October 8, 2010 12:30 PM | Report abuse

I'm pretty sure NBATV is showing it and it's free all preseason, for Comcast folks that is.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | October 8, 2010 12:42 PM | Report abuse

Just looked it up and 10 of his 17 where long jump shots(15 feet or more)..

He did have 7 shots in the paint, all jumpers of which he made 3. So looks like the box score was incorrect. He was actually 6-17..

Posted by: kevenjones | October 8, 2010 12:46 PM | Report abuse

"I agree Blatche can shoot. But watch, there will be a point in the game where he will take an ill-advised shot or two, just because he can shoot and it will change the momentum of the game."

Which player on the team doesnt take "an ill-advised shot or two" every night?

It's preseason. Blatche stepped out of his cast and made 7FGs in the paint against BTH and Chandler. They're good defenders right? If now he needs to launch ten 17fters a night to get his stroke right, by all means do it. That's what preseason is for.

Posted by: divi3 | October 8, 2010 12:48 PM | Report abuse

I like the combination of Wall, Arenas and Hinrich and think the combination of their talents make the Wizards stronger than many people realize.

But judging by his attitude and comments, I doubt that Gil has bought in to the idea of a reduced role, despite the fact that playing 25-30 minutes a game is good news for his bad knee. If this continues, the essential dilemma of both the Wizards and Gilbert Arenas will be that Gil needs both the major minutes and the protagonism of a main man to have any trade value at all. I can't imagine anyone taking an 80 million $ bite for a talented role player. I mean Isiah and McHale aren't running teams anymore, are they?

Posted by: mugsybol | October 8, 2010 12:50 PM | Report abuse

"...for Yi right now, I think it's a combo of a) someone showing him some love by trading for him, b) the training he did in the offseason, where they worked on his shot and his aggressiveness, c) his experience this summer as the leader of the China team, and d) his shot is pretty much falling right now. Oh, and also e) it's still preseason. posted by ts35"

Sure. But don't forget he's been playing at a high level in international play, so he's in good basketball shape -- above what you normally see in preseason -- and my issue is when those guys get tired later in the season, just from having missed the usual break. But we'll get to see what happens.

Yi is one of those guys that coaches have to use differently, depending on the matchup. Sometimes inside, sometimes not.

Posted by: Samson151 | October 8, 2010 12:58 PM | Report abuse

"If this continues, the essential dilemma of both the Wizards and Gilbert Arenas will be that Gil needs both the major minutes and the protagonism of a main man to have any trade value at all. I can't imagine anyone taking an 80 million $ bite for a talented role player."

I don't have any inside info, but it's hard to imagine any team paying that sort of money for anybody not named Kevin Durant or Dwight Howard. There'd need to be some sort of adjustment in that contract, and so far we haven't heard much along those lines. Gil isn't going to risk his knees by playing when they're sore, so that'll be a major preoccupation for him throughout the season. Another knee injury might be his last.

Posted by: Samson151 | October 8, 2010 1:02 PM | Report abuse

But judging by his attitude and comments, I doubt that Gil has bought in to the idea of a reduced role,

Posted by: mugsybol | October 8, 2010 12:50 PM

Why do you think his attitude has anything to do with buying into anything? Name me one professional athlete that has been treated worse, over a joke? By the way, I think Gil realizes it was a bad joke. Maybe Ron Artest after the Brawl. I can name a lot of professional athletes who did worse and has not been treated like Gil.

And it ain't about basketball.

Posted by: G-Man11 | October 8, 2010 1:14 PM | Report abuse

Without getting hung up on who is the PF vs. who is the SF, why not just start the most effective players...Yi and AB. Both can handle adequately or better, have diverse offensive weapons and sometimes play a little defense. This gives us basically 3 seven footers in the starting line up...paired with Wall and either GA/KH or we have a pretty solid 5.

I like that Gil is laying back a bit now, this is not like playing with AJ/CB and he needs to let it come to him early. If he settles in as a 15-18 ppg for 20-25 min a night, at a decent FG%, I think most folks would be elated.

On paper the team looks pretty deep in talent but some potential pieces are looking suspect...NY is the longest standing offender but clearly now Ndiaye will be bringing nothing this year (likely never based on hands/IQ indictments), Thorton has the focus of Chris Washburn, Seraphin will be a year or more to adjust to the speed of the NBA. Booker who I thought would have the easiest transition, 4 year physical player, looked decent in summer play but was picking up a foul a minute last night.

I knew Yi was solid, had watched a lot of him before he ever entered the NBA and the kid could just play, was not stiff and had a sweet stroke. Now he looks to be a primary option but there is zero depth at forward now.

It's early but which of these paper talents is going to produce for this team?


Posted by: The_Shadow_Knows | October 8, 2010 1:28 PM | Report abuse

G-Man: By his attitude, I refer to this somber, I-get-no-joy-out-of-playing-ball thing he's transmitting. Don't stick your head in the sand, something's going on with the man, and it doesn't bode well for the team. I would love to see him enthusuastic about what playing with Wall and Hinrich can do for himself and the team, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Hate to say it, but unless he gets that enthusiasm back, Wilbon's right, and then I go back to what I said about the team's dilemma in moving him. Frankly, if the season becomes a Gil soap opera, maybe a buyout is the best thing for all concerned

BTW, I agree with you about Gil getting off worse than others who have acted more recklessly.

Posted by: mugsybol | October 8, 2010 1:30 PM | Report abuse

...and we have a pretty solid 5.

Posted by: The_Shadow_Knows | October 8, 2010 1:30 PM | Report abuse

For at least the last 5 years the Wizards have lost concentration and started shooting reckless long shots without trying to move the ball around. They have had some great offensive games, but they always resort to quick long shots. This is a game killer. Great TEAMS do not make this mistake. We have the players to finish off plays. We need the plays to get the ball to these finishers. Wall does this consistently and gets the ball to the right player or forces penetration to the basket. This makes shots easier for all players. In a nutshell his athleticism and good decision making, changes the way the Wizards play. CAN WE GET RODMAN, MALONE, EWING, or some other defensive/rebounding beast to come and give some coaching to our players, including all forwards and centers. As it stands, we look great!!!

Posted by: 1bmffwb | October 8, 2010 1:31 PM | Report abuse

Wall reminds me of Isiah Thomas.

Posted by: ged0386 | October 8, 2010 1:33 PM | Report abuse

ged0386,
Completely agree...I see that also. His posture when he handles the ball and moves around traffic. Still have to pinch myself that this kid is wearing a Washington uniform.

Posted by: The_Shadow_Knows | October 8, 2010 1:38 PM | Report abuse

Great rebounders are born, not taught.

McGee MIGHT become an adequate defensive rebounder some day but he'll never be great. Where's a young, cheap Michael Cage or Kevin Willis when you need him?

Posted by: gimmedat | October 8, 2010 1:40 PM | Report abuse

Blurred

JM will have a decent season not because he has improved soo dramatically offensively but because wall will get him the ball above or right at the rim for high percentage shots, in the same way Chris Paul improved Tyson Chandlers game a couple of seasons ago.

Posted by: ged0386 | October 8, 2010 1:43 PM | Report abuse

Unlike Wilbn, I see nothing Gil has done so far is a ditraction to the team, and certianly the team do not feel so. Why trade Gil and get $.50 for $1? The combination of Wall-Gil may actually work!

I don't know Yi is quick enough to guard SF. But we don't know until we tried it, ane the best time to experiment is preseason!

Posted by: sagaliba | October 8, 2010 1:45 PM | Report abuse

Wall reminds me of Isiah Thomas.

Posted by: ged0386

I'll warn the Wizards' secretarial staff.

Zeke had one quality in particular that I have not seen from Wall. Zeke had that great smile (as does Wall) but Zeke always seemed like he'd have no problem stabbing you in the tunnels at halftime if he thought it would help the team win...smiling that big smile the whole time.

Haven't seen that yet from Wall. Kinda hoping we don't :)

Posted by: ts35 | October 8, 2010 1:56 PM | Report abuse

...you cant judge GA by the preseason. In the past he just played head games in preseason, not shooting an entire half and then scoring 20+ in the second. GA will be alright this year. He will get hot when the Wiz need him to carry them...which may be quite often. If you think about it who is really going to score for them consistently besides GA and AB.

Posted by: oddjob1 | October 8, 2010 2:03 PM | Report abuse

^it is now JWOWW's team. Les BouleS will provide plenty of alley-oops for the highlight reels, but they will remain Les BouleS -- real inconsistent and creampuff with big men shooting lots of 3s, and marred by EG's failure to improve the defense, again, and Our Time's 3-guard lineup. LMAO. Then JWOWW will hit a wall, hard, at which point it will behoove Les BouleS to tank, probably the move anyways, although dudes like AB (the new 'Twan) will continue putting up double doubles, padding stats and trying to eek out victories, which will not cease to evade them regardless. Then this summer EG and Ed Rasclot will hustle to trade our looong-awaited lotto pick for a couple more has-been/never-was ex-lottery picks. At least the pizza ovens will be hotter at MCI. Hopefully the IPad 2 will come out in time 2011-12 training camp.

Posted by: prescrunk | October 8, 2010 2:51 PM | Report abuse

@oddjob1,

I think JW as well as Kirk and Yi will contribute on the offensive end, and when Josh get's back he will be probaby 2nd behind Gil...

Posted by: kevenjones | October 8, 2010 2:55 PM | Report abuse

Before we go retiring Yi's number I think we have to recall that he has had games where he stars and then disappears for a week. Very up-and-down.

That's the history of foreign players, of course. So, maybe in his third year he'll be more consistent.

If so, they've got a steal. If not, nothing lost.

This was a terrific pickup; everything to gain, little to lose.

Of course, if he blossoms he's going to cost alot on the open market.

Posted by: SteveMG | October 8, 2010 3:29 PM | Report abuse

G-Man: By his attitude, I refer to this somber, I-get-no-joy-out-of-playing-ball thing he's transmitting. Don't stick your head in the sand, something's going on with the man, and it doesn't bode well for the team. I would love to see him enthusuastic about what playing with Wall and Hinrich can do for himself and the team, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Hate to say it, but unless he gets that enthusiasm back, Wilbon's right, and then I go back to what I said about the team's dilemma in moving him. Frankly, if the season becomes a Gil soap opera, maybe a buyout is the best thing for all concerned

BTW, I agree with you about Gil getting off worse than others who have acted more recklessly.

Posted by: mugsybol | October 8, 2010 1:30 PM | Report abuse

did you see him enthusiasticly stonping his ice-packed, thrice surgically repaired leg into the hardwood, grinning ear to ear following Lester Hudson's game winner tuesday night? How bout the countless comments from J-Wiz about how he and Gil joke around with each other. Can we stop making stories out of nothing? Until i hear about Gil's teammates or coaches being rubbed the wrong way, I'm gonna let it ride. Gil doesn't have to entertain me with his smile, haircut, or jersey tosses. After two of the worst wizards/bullets seasons in recent history; if not in general, I'll settle for being entertained by his game.
BTW there are 14 other guys on the team you can watch for body language and mannerisms. One of these smiles all the time much to the dismay of coaches and bloggers; hey damned if you do damned if you don't.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | October 8, 2010 4:31 PM | Report abuse

Can we give the Gil hate a rest for the moment. He hasn't said anything but he seems to bring a story to this blog. He just plays and continue to work to get back to his game but the Gil story still continues to surface. We are a better team with GA, AGAIN, WE ARE A BETTER TEAM WITH GA! Once J Howard returns, we will be even better. Nuf Said?

Posted by: zack5 | October 8, 2010 4:40 PM | Report abuse

Did it strike anyone about the first 3 teams the Wiz play in preseason Dallas, Cleveland and Chicago are teams we made major trades with. Tomorrow we will read about Heinrich's return to Chicago. Just sayin'.

Posted by: bobilly1 | October 8, 2010 6:06 PM | Report abuse

So, maybe in his third year he'll be more consistent.

My error: This is his fourth year.

Posted by: SteveMG | October 8, 2010 6:46 PM | Report abuse

Yo! Before we start polishing off the Larry o'Brien trophy for presentation to Mr.Leonsis could we have a dose of reality? who is going to rebound,score in the clutch,stop a season killing losing streak,keep the team on an even keel? Those are the serious questions that surround this squad for all the hopes and dreams of this fan base the bottom line is talent and that is where we are sorely lacking, JWall is going to be an all star for years to come but he needs help,had we kept Caron Butler i'd would feel a lot better about this upcomming season.

Posted by: dargregmag | October 8, 2010 6:58 PM | Report abuse

Why are some saying Gil must "accept a lesser role?" Why can't he just play his game while Wall and Hinrich make sure the touches are distributed to the right people? Playing his game "down" is not a smart move; if Earl Monroe could coexist and prosper with Walt Frazier, the Knicks and Red Holtzman, then Arenas can certainly coexist with this team.

Posted by: dcjazzman | October 8, 2010 7:05 PM | Report abuse

"if Earl Monroe could coexist and prosper with Walt Frazier, the Knicks and Red Holtzman, then Arenas can certainly coexist with this team.Posted by: dcjazzman"

This argument has appeared several times on this blog, and I admit it's never made a lot of sense to me. A few differences between Earl's Knicks and the present-day Wiz:
1. Frazier had been in the NBA four seasons when he was partnered with Earl;
2. Willis Reed and Jerry Lucas played center; and
3. Bill Bradley, Dave DeBusschere, Dick Barnett, and Mike Riordan were on that team. None less than 3 seasons in the league.

Posted by: Samson151 | October 8, 2010 8:00 PM | Report abuse

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