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Pattern developing for gimpy Wizards

By Michael Lee
Morning brew

If the Wizards keep with their season-long trend, they will defeat Toronto on Tuesday, then lose the next two games to Boston and Memphis. The Wizards (2-6) have lost two, won one, lost two, won one, and lost two. At least they've been consistent in one area.

John Wall has had huge, history-making individual performances in the Wizards' two wins this season, which places a lot of pressure on the No. 1 overall pick to deliver. The task may have become more challenging, with Wall spraining his left foot Saturday in a loss to Chicago.

Wall is among several Wizards who came away with some bumps and bruises in that back-to-back set against the Charlotte Bobcats and the Bulls. Al Thornton came down with a stomach ailment against the Bobcats, then had a listless outing against the Bulls. Andray Blatche, still working himself back into shape after breaking his right foot over the summer, tried to play through soreness in his left knee until he was forced to shut down against the Bulls. And, Yi Jianlian was relieved that his right knee injury wasn't more serious after a frightening collision with Wall in the same game.

JaVale McGee isn't injured, but Coach Flip Saunders has kept him on the bench during some critical stretches of the past two games. He benched him the entire fourth quarter against Chicago and the final six minutes against Charlotte for failing to give the Wizards the interior presence Saunders seeks from his big man. McGee has blocked 10 shots in his past three games, but he hasn't played more than 23 minutes in any of them. "He's got a ways to go," Saunders said. "He's got to learn substance over style. In a game, there's 200 plays. He has five spectacular plays in a game, he's got to get more consistent in those other 195 plays."

With Gilbert Arenas breaking out of his season-long shooting slump by scoring 30 points in 32 minutes against the Bulls, and Trevor Booker and Hilton Armstrong providing some quality production off the bench, Saunders may have to make some adjustments to his rotation.

For a team that's on pace to win 20 games, it would seem that there is opportunity. And if injuries to Wall, Blatche and Yi are more serious than initially diagnosed, then Saunders may not be left with any other choice but to make some changes.

FROM THE POST
Here is Michael Lee's game story from Saturday's game in Chicago and today's story about how Wall and his teammates are recovering from injuries. Meanwhile, Wall explained why he re-entered the game after hurting his foot on Saturday, Kirk Hinrich's Chicago homecoming was incomplete and Gilbert Arenas was "on fire" for awhile.

AROUND THE WEB
Mike DeCourcy of the Sporting News says Colin Cowherd showed his ignorance in his latest anti-Wall rant.

The Wall Street Journal documents the Dougie craze. Wizards fan Wolf Blitzer even sought out Dougie lessons from Doug E. Fresh at the Soul Train Music Awards. Never thought that sentence would be written. (For a complete report on the Dougie check out recent posts on the D.C. Sports Bog.)

The Painted Area says the Wizards are a League Pass must-see team this season.

By Michael Lee  | November 15, 2010; 8:06 AM ET
Categories:  Morning brew  
Save & Share:  Send E-mail   Facebook   Twitter   Digg   Yahoo Buzz   Del.icio.us   StumbleUpon   Technorati   Google Buzz   Previous: Kirk Hinrich's homecoming was incomplete
Next: John Wall is day-to-day, Andray Blatche unsure about Toronto

Comments

One of the reasons the Wolves traded Roy for Foye and cash is their doctors deemed Roy's knees too much of a risk. Now, Roy is struggling with his health -- his left knee, in particular -- and he suggested recently that his most athletic days are behind him.
http://www.startribune.com/sports/wolves/107795669.html?elr=KArksi8cyaiUqPk4DyCc75DiUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aULPQL7PQLanchO7DiUr

You say this is old news, I say this is yet more evidence that Ted needs to clean-house starting with Grunfeld and the medical staff.

Posted by: closg | November 15, 2010 8:45 AM | Report abuse

I mixed-up Foy and Roy, my bad. They both have been injured on and off.

Posted by: closg | November 15, 2010 9:02 AM | Report abuse

JaVale McGee isn't injured, but Coach Flip Saunders has kept him on the bench during some critical stretches of the past two games. He benched him the entire fourth quarter against Chicago and the final six minutes against Charlotte for failing to give the Wizards the interior presence Saunders seeks from his big man. McGee has blocked 10 shots in his past three games, but he hasn't played more than 23 minutes in any of them. "He's got a ways to go," Saunders said. "He's got to learn substance over style. In a game, there's 200 plays. He has five spectacular plays in a game, he's got to get more consistent in those other 195 plays."

Flip, how is he suppose to learn while sitting on the bench during a season where we're not going to make the playoffs?

Posted by: 33dgriffin | November 15, 2010 9:40 AM | Report abuse

"Flip, how is he suppose to learn while sitting on the bench during a season where we're not going to make the playoffs?
Posted by: 33dgriffin"

He could be thinking about what he should be doing when he's back in the game?

I'm just curious, do you think McGee would have played better in the fourth against Chicago than Hilton did?

Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 9:54 AM | Report abuse

Wiz outrebounded Bulls by 7, took 13 more FGAs, shot the same FG%, and hit three more 3s, but took only 8 FTA compared to the Bulls 34.

Flip's teams have shot more FTs than their opponents exactly one time over the course of 10 seasons. That's a large sample size and some would say proof-positive that for all Flip's talk about the need for interior play and "big butts" in the post- he runs a jumpshooting offense. Always has, always will.

Posted by: divi3 | November 15, 2010 10:13 AM | Report abuse

flip is an idiot. mcgee cant learn on the bench. he also does more than block shots, he hustles, trys, alters shots, does rebound, sometimes hes out of position, but isnt armstrong and yi as well??? and at least mcgee can score, armstrong has stone hands!!! flip is an idiot, needs to play JM an NY more. wizards are horrible at player development, large part cuz the coaches WIN NOW additude on a lottery team!!! theyr just trying to save there jobs. let the youngings play nd learn!!!

Posted by: skinsfan09 | November 15, 2010 10:27 AM | Report abuse

i wish NY could find a way to play better and earn a few more mins. He's working pretty hard when he's out there, and he's one of our best shooters once he finds his groove.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | November 15, 2010 10:41 AM | Report abuse

Yeah, McGee can't learn on the bench. However, it would be nice to hear that McGee studies the great centers on film.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWFsL4Y8RVA&playnext=1&list=PL6E6AEEE1F8B12A0E&index=3

Posted by: PostSubscriber | November 15, 2010 10:49 AM | Report abuse

Noah only had 1 rebound in the 2nd half on Saturday. McGee was on him for the better part of the 3rd quarter - can he get some love for that? There's no valid reason JaVale couldn't have been reinserted in the final frame, especially when no other bigs were finishing strong in the paint.

Letting McGee work through his mistakes now may or may not cost the team wins but perhaps it would set him up for a strong 2nd half of the season. I think most fans are resigned to the fact that this team is going to take some lumps but maybe they'll be delivering a few in 2011 and beyond.

McGee is a big part of this process and Flip's persistence of singling him out is getting tired.

Posted by: elfreako | November 15, 2010 10:53 AM | Report abuse

flip critisizes mcgee for not reabounding, he cant rebound on the bench in crunch time. mcgee tries, saunder says he wont reward players for playing mediocre. at least hes trying, u have to develop him. how is he gonna develop on the bench!!! wer always in the game, til the last 5 mins we lose....partly cuz mcgee is benched. then players drive on the baseline and score layups!!!! even if mcgee doesent block or rebound, his presence alone alters shots!!!! fire flip!!!!!

Posted by: skinsfan09 | November 15, 2010 11:03 AM | Report abuse

@Samson151
I'm just curious, do you think McGee would have played better in the fourth against Chicago than Hilton did?

Yes, I think he would have played better then Hilton. Michael Lee who never says anything bad about Washington coaches has already pointed out that benching McGee has not resulted in good things for the Wizards.


"Saunders has made an example of McGee in two out of the past three games, benching him after lapses during critical portions of the game. (He failed to box out Anderson Varejao late against Cleveland, allowing the Cavaliers to hit a three-pointer). Saunders is obviously upset with McGee, but benching McGee has turned out to hurt the Wizards, with teams going on huge runs with him not on the floor. The Cavaliers went on a 10-0 run with McGee sitting, while the Bobcats scored eight unanswered in the first three minutes McGee sat."


Posted by: 33dgriffin | November 15, 2010 11:04 AM | Report abuse

McGEE needs to grow up and quit taking plays off. I think SAUNDERS is right on the money here. If he wants to get paid, but doesn't want to progress, sit him. Better that than lose anyway. May as well lose with someone who's interested in winning instead of watching and learning "the dougie."

When FLIP singles out individuals who need to amp up their b-ball I.Q., I think he's talking directly to McGEE and YOUNG.

Posted by: glawrence007 | November 15, 2010 11:07 AM | Report abuse

McGee is a big part of this process and Flip's persistence of singling him out is getting tired.

Posted by: elfreako | November 15, 2010 10:53 AM | Report abuse

Well I'm tired of seeing guards breaking down our perimeter defense and flying unimpeded to the rim for lay-ins and dunks. They should be picking their collective azz's up off the floor when they come in there. At least ARMSTRONG's willing. looks like SAUNDERS has had enough also. And right now, he's got the hook. Good for him.

Posted by: glawrence007 | November 15, 2010 11:12 AM | Report abuse

Well I'm tired of seeing guards breaking down our perimeter defense and flying unimpeded to the rim for lay-ins and dunks.

Mcgee has 13blks in his last 90mins or so of court time, is there someone else on the team protecting the rim better?

Perhaps it's time to start also focusing on the first part of your thought and expect better perimeter D as well as improved rotations from our bigs.

Posted by: divi3 | November 15, 2010 11:29 AM | Report abuse

"Flip's teams have shot more FTs than their opponents exactly one time over the course of 10 seasons."

Hmmm... aren't we mostly interested in the Wizards? In Flip's first year, the Wiz averaged 23.1 FT attempts per game. So far this season, they're averaging an even 22. That's not so out of line. Boston, for instance, is currently averaging 21.7 attempts, the Lakers 23.8. The Magic have averaged 28.3, despite being mostly a jumpshooting team. New Orleans, the NBA's hottest club, shoots around 25 a game.

Just not a real big difference between, say, the Wiz, Boston, and LA. I think Wall is not getting some of the calls he should, but that's a rookie-ref issue. The real problem IMO is how many FT attempts the opponent is getting -- and that's about the defense, not the offense.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 11:34 AM | Report abuse

May as well lose with someone who's interested in winning instead of watching and learning "the dougie."

When FLIP singles out individuals who need to amp up their b-ball I.Q., I think he's talking directly to McGEE and YOUNG.

Posted by: glawrence007 | November 15, 2010 11:07 AM | Report abuse

Everybody's favorite guard Kirk Hinrich started off Saturday's LOSS to chicago with a lil Pre-Game "Dougie". Comcast caught him doing it in the team huddle. Wasn't there a lil something about you can't Dougie if you lose?
Either way, it's laughable that you call out NY and McGee about needing to amp up anything. Their mins down the stretch are so few and far between, they have no chance to affect the game positively or negatively. Ny is doing his job coming off the bench, working on D and putting up buckets. I haven't seen him look particularly deficient in the past few games, more so, he's been a bright spot off the bench.
I'm not even gonna get into the McGee argument, i think Mike Lee said it best; teams go on scoring runs when he's not in the game.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | November 15, 2010 11:42 AM | Report abuse

John Wall 40+ minutes??!! This is insanity!!
Look at the minutes for all the other rookies on that list. Flipper is gonna kill John Wall before he's done.

Posted by: skins_fan_22 | November 15, 2010 11:50 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 11:34 AM | Report abuse

I think you're trying to be evasive, and kinda talk around a pretty interesting point. I guess folks could pull out the video tape and see what should be called and what shouldn't but what Divi points out is that over the past 10 yrs flips teams haven't had the FT advantage, for whatever reason. Refs not liking him, or not wanting to give calls to rookies, recovering vets and up and coming stars or whatever it could be. Players running Flip Saunders offense for Flip Saunders teams have not been able to get to the line more than their opponents. If that's happened for 10 yrs it can't be coincidence. It's gotta be coaching. There is something inherently less aggressive/toward the basket oriented about his system. It may start with the pg handling the ball 85 % of the time.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | November 15, 2010 11:53 AM | Report abuse

Well I'm tired of seeing guards breaking down our perimeter defense and flying unimpeded to the rim for lay-ins and dunks.

Mcgee has 13blks in his last 90mins or so of court time, is there someone else on the team protecting the rim better?

Perhaps it's time to start also focusing on the first part of your thought and expect better perimeter D as well as improved rotations from our bigs.

Posted by: divi3 | November 15, 2010 11:29 AM | Report abuse

I was wondering why you don't see PFs and Cs finishing these high flying dunks and layups. Don't get me wrong, bigs have gotten their share of layups and putbacks as to be expected in certain situations. But you're seeing guards not being challenged on the perimeter and finishing against a big who is trying to check 2 players.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | November 15, 2010 11:57 AM | Report abuse

AB needs to be benched when he goes behind the back, with that weak dribble, when he shoots a fadeaway, when he dribbles more than 10 times during a possession, UNLESS he's backing someone on the low post!
Just because JM has 13 blocks, it is fruitless if they go out of bounds, for the other team to have an out of bounds play then go INSIDE. Those types of blocks are actullay turnovers for the Wiz!

Posted by: DelMar2 | November 15, 2010 12:06 PM | Report abuse

Yet, Flip keeps scapegoating McGee for his own ineffective coaching scheme."

This is my biggest issue with the whole McGee thing. Flip rips him either directly or indirectly after every game for the mistakes that Javale makes which I guess some coaches do, but will find a way to praise others when they haven't played well.

Maybe this is Flip's way of motivating Javale but I don't know if this is the best way to handle a young player? Javale is the only inside presence on the floor when he's in the game (although not a great one) as Blatche and Yi are defensive unicorns our there.

It looks as if Flip does not respect Javale on a deep level and feels obligated to play him only because he's a young piece that EG drafted. I believe this problem will show its true face soon as one of the two will erupt. Stay tuned.


Posted by: zxhoya | November 15, 2010 11:40 AM | Report abuse

Totally agree Zxhoya....

Posted by: BulletsFever | November 15, 2010 12:06 PM | Report abuse

Just because JM has 13 blocks, it is fruitless if they go out of bounds, for the other team to have an out of bounds play then go INSIDE. Those types of blocks are actullay turnovers for the Wiz!

Posted by: DelMar2 | November 15, 2010 12:06 PM | Report abuse

You know this phenomenon of blocking shots existed before javale mcgee entered the nba?you know that every shot he stops from getting to the basket is just that, a shot attempt that HE STOPPED from getting to the basket. calling a block a turnover is silly. A turnover is everyone's favorite SF Al Thornton dribbling the ball into the lane and attempting a 360 pass to nobody in crunch time (can't blame javale for that).I'll take more "turnovers" where javale stops the other team from scoring, than those sound possessions where the guards OLE the oppsing team's ballhandler en route to an easy layup and 2 pts for the opposition.

I get it. It'd be nice if he could control every block. But it's be great if Flip could find a winning lineup and stick with it too. i dunno the likelihood of either thing happening, but I know blocking shots is better than allowing shots you can block.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | November 15, 2010 12:19 PM | Report abuse

He benched him the entire fourth quarter against Chicago and the final six minutes against Charlotte for failing to give the Wizards the interior presence Saunders seeks from his big man. McGee has blocked 10 shots in his past three games, but he hasn't played more than 23 minutes in any of them."He's got a ways to go," Saunders said. "He's got to learn substance over style. In a game, there's 200 plays. He has five spectacular plays in a game, he's got to get more consistent in those other 195 plays."

What the HECK is Flip talking about...!!?? How is interior defense defined in his book. Man, he is so much like Eddie Jordan it is almost scary. Eddie used to blame Haywood all of the time on almost the same thing.

When is either coach ever going to start laying blame to their guards who can't play a lick of perimeter defense (Gilbert and Kirk)? First they both want their "5's" to "show" everytime the opposing teams guard brings the ball to the top of the key.

Then they want the "5" to double back down to the post to front the opposing "5". Meantime Kirk and/or Gilbert's man has blown past them and then McGee is supposed to jump out and contest their shot. Once he jumps out and contests the guard's shot the guard dumps it off to who..??

You guessed it, McGee's man. That man in turn gets an easy flush and guess who fault Flip is going to say it was....??? McGee can not win. If he leaves his man to cover for the blown defense of Kirk or Gil, he gets blamed. If he stays with his man and the guard goes in for an uncontested layup IT'S HIS FAULT..!!!

I watch Hilton and Yi do the same thing and they never get blamed... Ask for the substance over style, what 195 plays is he not doing...!!!??? Flip is going to end up killing this young boy's confidence if he is not careful. Just ask AB about that treatment he received from Eddie Jordan.

I used to be a Flip supporter, but now after hearing this and watching his rotations the last 6 games has shown me he is not the coach for this team...!!! Again, if he is going to tell me having Armstrong and Yi in at the "5" is our best option, then maybe I should start looking for another team.

Posted by: BulletsFever | November 15, 2010 12:28 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: BulletsFever | November 15, 2010 12:28 PM | Report abuse

glad folks are getting up on this. i saw it the first game and immediately thought it was something new that javale had been coached to do or coached out of doing whichever way you wanna look at it. But early in the game Nelso drove to the basket and Vale bodied up Howard rather than cutting off Nelson on the baseline, and thus allowing an uncontested layup. You're absolutely right he's in between a rock and a hard place considering what he's being asked to do. I'm also surprised at the lack of attention given to the really poor perimeter defense.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | November 15, 2010 12:33 PM | Report abuse

McGEE needs to grow up and quit taking plays off. I think SAUNDERS is right on the money here. If he wants to get paid, but doesn't want to progress, sit him. Better that than lose anyway. May as well lose with someone who's interested in winning instead of watching and learning "the dougie."

When FLIP singles out individuals who need to amp up their b-ball I.Q., I think he's talking directly to McGEE and YOUNG.

Posted by: glawrence007 | November 15, 2010 11:07 AM | Report abuse

What plays is he "taking off"...??? He only gets about 23 minutes a game and with those little bit of minutes he is always hustling. If you have been watching the games you can clearly see how aggressive he is with chasing down rebounds and covering for the weak defensive guard play of Kirk and Gil.

Again what games are you watching??? As for the little dance comment, if I am not mistaken everybody on the team was watching the dance. Even Mr. "Clean cut Kirk H" was seen doing the dance at the start of a game. Should he now be benched for not "paying attention" and instead learning "how to dougie"....????

Posted by: BulletsFever | November 15, 2010 12:39 PM | Report abuse

FREE MCGEE!!!!!!

FREE MCGEE!!!!!!!

SAM CASSELL FOR COACH!!!!

SAM CASSELL FOR COACH!!!

Posted by: BulletsFever | November 15, 2010 12:46 PM | Report abuse

I'm not following this reasoning. Are you saying that Larry is right in accusing Flip of ruining Ben Wallace, even though it's not supported by the facts? Based on the fact that others (some of whom are probably not very bright) accused him of it?

Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 9:32 AM

Larry conceded that his assertions that Flip Saunders coaching style was not the cause of Ben Wallace declined performance. So there's no more argument saying that Flip ruined Ben Wallace. However, Larry still believes that Flip Saunders is a bad coach and maybe for him perception is reality. That's all I am saying

Posted by: spades72 | November 15, 2010 1:04 PM | Report abuse

FIRE FLIP!!!! mcgee needs to learn on the court. flip is just using him as a scapegoat...again

Posted by: skinsfan09 | November 15, 2010 1:23 PM | Report abuse

There are a lot of people on this blog who seem to confuse blocked shots with good defense. It's true that McGee is tremendously athletic, and he blocks shots with ease regularly. That makes him a crowd favorite, and it certainly looks like hustle.

But if you pay attention, you'll notice a large number of his blocks come only after he is caught out of position, or is beaten to the rim. He recovers well, but if he were a truly great defender he wouldn't need to block those shots in the first place. And let's not forget that every time he jumps wildly attempting to block a shot (read: every play) he ends up out of position for rebounds.

Flip knows this. People who play basketball know this. The entire organization (not to mention USA Basketball) have made it perfectly clear what McGee needs to do: get better at positioning, don't leave your feet, box out, clog the middle.

He refuses to do it, so he sits on the bench in crunch time. It's true that if he were on the floor in the fourth quarter, he might make an amazing block. But he'll also give up easy rebounds and layups, take an ill=advised flying sky hook, and exhibit a horrifying basketball IQ. The kid is a great athlete, but he can't play basketball. See Young, Nick and Blatche, Andray.

Posted by: bryc3 | November 15, 2010 1:25 PM | Report abuse

@ Samson151

Do you actually read the entire post or do you just skim through stuff? This is what Kalo_rama wrote ridiculing Larry on his spelling.

Larry, Larry, Larry.
"Acquiscence"? (Seriously, learn how to use spell check.)

In the future, if you really want to "acquisce" when someone crushes your argument, there' a simple way to do it. Here, I'll make it easy for you. All you have to do is copy and paste the following:

While Kalo_rama was busy criticizing Larry about his bad spelling Kalo_rama also spelled the same word wrong. Did you not get that? BTW the word is spelled "acquiesce"

Posted by: spades72 | November 15, 2010 1:28 PM | Report abuse

Why is anyone criticizing spelling anyway? If i'm not mistaken this is a casual sports blog. Instead of focusing on minor spelling and grammatical errors, why not just focus on ones argument?...Losers

Posted by: Wizbullets88 | November 15, 2010 1:39 PM | Report abuse

There are a lot of people on this blog who seem to confuse blocked shots with good defense. It's true that McGee is tremendously athletic, and he blocks shots with ease regularly. That makes him a crowd favorite, and it certainly looks like hustle.

But if you pay attention, you'll notice a large number of his blocks come only after he is caught out of position, or is beaten to the rim. He recovers well, but if he were a truly great defender he wouldn't need to block those shots in the first place. And let's not forget that every time he jumps wildly attempting to block a shot (read: every play) he ends up out of position for rebounds.
Posted by: bryc3

Excellent post.

I know blocking shots is better than allowing shots you can block.
Posted by: lilhollywood10

But not as good as grabbing the rebound.

Posted by: nmik | November 15, 2010 1:39 PM | Report abuse

"For a team that's on pace to win 20 games"

Michael Lee really is an imbecile. Not just your ordinary, every day run of the mill idiot. But a unique, over the top, moron. I wonder if the Wizards win against Toronto if he'll update this comment to "For a team that's on pace to win 30 games."

Seriously, this guy gets paid to report on this team? What a farce.

Posted by: Barno1 | November 15, 2010 1:41 PM | Report abuse

Hmmm... aren't we mostly interested in the Wizards?

So you're saying rather than judging Flip's offense over the past 10 seasons, I should be looking at his 28-62 record as the Wizard's head coach?

Posted by: divi3 | November 15, 2010 1:45 PM | Report abuse


I have a hard time believing that Flip is point-blank telling McGee not to go for so many blocks and McGee is just ignoring him and going for the highlight-reel block every time. Is Flip actually saying that McGee is not coachable? Let me also say that McGee does not strike me a dumb person when he's interviewed. Something stinks with Flip's comments and his coaching. It seems to me that McGee is not being told explicitly what his primary responsibilities are when he's in the game.

Posted by: 2020doc | November 15, 2010 1:49 PM | Report abuse

Give Seraphin Minutes Flip!! Start Gil!! J-How is the key to the teams success..

Posted by: CantWait90 | November 15, 2010 1:52 PM | Report abuse

He recovers well, but if he were a truly great defender he wouldn't need to block those shots in the first place.

I used to think the same thing when Hakeem was on his way to all-time nba blocks leader- the truly great defenders don't need to block them. It's only hacks like Dwight Howard who consistently lead the league in blocks.

Posted by: divi3 | November 15, 2010 1:54 PM | Report abuse

Something stinks with Flip's comments and his coaching. It seems to me that McGee is not being told explicitly what his primary responsibilities are when he's in the game.

I think Mcgee is treated differently because they see so much potential in him, and EG envision him one day being a perennial all-star caliber player. So they want to mold him the right way, right now.

Flip ripped Blatche everyday last season....but don't you think Flip was onboard with extending him? He knows Blatche is perfect for the jumpshooting offense he's run the past decade, and he wants AB on the team.

Players like HA, KH, Yi, AT(?)....110% irrelevant to the future of the club, so the coaching focus remains on those intended to be here.

Will Mcgee ever develop? Is Flip developing him properly? All debatable, but the club's desire is for JM to be that guy. And they sent him a clear message in picking up his 4th year before the season.

Posted by: divi3 | November 15, 2010 2:02 PM | Report abuse

Javale McGee is reflective of the culture of the modern day pro athlete(football,basketball,baseball) all style no substance why do you think the NFL commisioner is coming down hard on their players? because they don't know how to tackle, same with baseball(fundamentals)i.e. hitting the cutoff man, and with Javale; rebounding position, stop worrying about making a highlight dunk and do the grunt work but i don't blame him it all it start's way before they get to the league, it's an aau coach who don't know jack about the game but is coaching anyway it's their homeboyz looking for a payday telling them their the greatest. The culture of pro sport's along with the 24/7 media have screwed up so many young player's it ain't funny. The McGee's, Wall's, and Cousins of this world are not being done any favors by not playing 2/3 yrs. of college ball but the truth of the matter is, college's are pimping the kid's so it's a vicious cycle, and if the kid isn't smart enough to recognize he needs help then he may be perceived to be a knucklehead, but at the end of the day it's their coach and his staff that have to turn that kid in the right direction with the teaching of the basics and proper fundamentals.

Posted by: dargregmag | November 15, 2010 2:12 PM | Report abuse

I see the samething with McGee. Super Fun to watch because he is so athletic..But he is a loooooong way away. Leave's his feet everytime becuase he tries to block every shot. Rebounding positioning stinks...

He is so lost out there it's not even funny. Who saw in the fourth quarter of the home opener, JW called for a high pick and roll, JM froze and set the pick late, leading to a turnover.

Saunders sat him down right then and there.

JM needs to focus more on rebounding, playing defense (not just blocking shots) but being more of a "quarterback" on the defensive end..Long way to go..

So I get it when Flip sit's him because alot of this is unexcusable at this point.

Posted by: kevenjones | November 15, 2010 2:33 PM | Report abuse

There are a lot of people on this blog who seem to confuse blocked shots with good defense. It's true that McGee is tremendously athletic, and he blocks shots with ease regularly. That makes him a crowd favorite, and it certainly looks like hustle.

But if you pay attention, you'll notice a large number of his blocks come only after he is caught out of position, or is beaten to the rim. He recovers well, but if he were a truly great defender he wouldn't need to block those shots in the first place. And let's not forget that every time he jumps wildly attempting to block a shot (read: every play) he ends up out of position for rebounds.
Posted by: bryc3

Excellent post.

I know blocking shots is better than allowing shots you can block.
Posted by: lilhollywood10

But not as good as grabbing the rebound.

Posted by: nmik | November 15, 2010 1:39 PM | Report abuse

Apples and Oranges.

A rebound is secured after a shot is taken and missed; whereas, a block occurs as the player is attempting a shot, or after the shot is released while the ball is still on an upward path.

I never traded blocked shots for rebounding positioning. I see the importance of being in good defensive position and being able to box out for rebounds. But let's not diminish the importance of challenging,changing and blocking shots.

It would be great if McGee could control the tips,deflections and blocks he causes game in and game out; but if he can't, are we gonna ignore the effort? Deflected shots can end up in the front row, but they can also turn into 50/50 balls where either team has a chance at the ball. How many fast breaks have been started by a block that finds it's way into the hands of a guard hustling for the 50/50 ball?

I was only commenting on blocked shots and the need to control them. The post i was responding to equated blocked shots with turnovers. Everyone recognizes Mcgee is still a work in progress. Most of us differ on how much progress he's made, and whether or no he should be working on his game in the game.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | November 15, 2010 2:38 PM | Report abuse

So you're saying rather than judging Flip's offense over the past 10 seasons, I should be looking at his 28-62 record as the Wizard's head coach?

Posted by: divi3 | November 15, 2010 1:45 PM | Report abuse

Lmao!!!!!!Yikes

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | November 15, 2010 2:44 PM | Report abuse

I don't mind Yi closing games, or Hilton on the rare occasion that he's got it going. That's not costing games. The Wizards were choking away games last year with Haywood playing C. They won't be winning too many close games until Wall and Arenas learn how to execute down the stretch.

I don't really know what to think about McGee. First there was the salute, and now he's added the finger to the temple. Seems like losing doesn't really bother him.

Posted by: djnnnou | November 15, 2010 2:45 PM | Report abuse

I know what you guys are talking about with that Nelson drive in the Magic game.

Defense isn't a one on one thing. A lot of times you push a guy to a direction with help.

I remember watching that and thinking Nelson went baseline JaVale should've been there. He should've left Dwight. He steps over and there are three things that happen.

1. Shot ends up in the 16th row.
2. Nelson tries to lob it OVER McGee.
3. He tries to drop it to D12 with Hinrich in the lane from playing him baseline AND someone should've rotated over.

JaVale just looked like he didn't know what to do. And Hinirch's glare at him told a little too.

JaVale is constantly out of position but athletically it's nobody out there like him so he can recover. Like the last home game he got beat and recovered to send a shot off the glass. JaVale blocks a lot of shots but weren't people shooting like 80% at the rim?

It is what it is. JaVale is kinda lost of defense sometimes but athletic enough to cover ground. One person out of position makes EVERYBODY scramble. Like I said...defense is a TEAM effort.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | November 15, 2010 2:53 PM | Report abuse

I do mind Yi and HA closing games because in fact they rarely play any better than Mcgee and are often worse. Also, would rather Mcgee gets the experience as neither Yi nor HA will likely be here going forward.

It's funny that for all the scorn heaped on Javale, virtually every one of his defensive stats are better (or much better) than Yi or HA.

Case in point- he blocks 10% of opponents shots when he's on the floor. League leader in that category. Takes serious mental gymnastics to turn that into a negative about the kid.

Posted by: divi3 | November 15, 2010 2:56 PM | Report abuse

@ Samson151

Do you actually read the entire post or do you just skim through stuff? This is what Kalo_rama wrote ridiculing Larry on his spelling.

Larry, Larry, Larry.
"Acquiscence"? (Seriously, learn how to use spell check.)

In the future, if you really want to "acquisce" when someone crushes your argument, there' a simple way to do it. Here, I'll make it easy for you. All you have to do is copy and paste the following:

While Kalo_rama was busy criticizing Larry about his bad spelling Kalo_rama also spelled the same word wrong. Did you not get that? BTW the word is spelled "acquiesce"

Posted by: spades72 | November 15, 2010

HAHAHAHA! Priceless. Just priceless.

Posted by: kalo_rama | November 15, 2010 2:59 PM | Report abuse

Not enough FTs? We do not have players that can draw fouls. As said before, our bigs lacks post moves, and our guards do not penetrate that much. Wall is very good in open court, his speed is amazing, but I do not see him break down opponents. Gil used to be able to do it, but is questionable now, and Hinrich is always a jump shooter. Hopefully, Gil can regain his form, and Wall can get better at this aspect of the game. Other than these two, the next one is Blatche, he is the closest on the team to have something resemble an "inside game" (however unorthodox).

Posted by: sagaliba | November 15, 2010 3:04 PM | Report abuse

"There are a lot of people on this blog who seem to confuse blocked shots with good defense. It's true that McGee is tremendously athletic, and he blocks shots with ease regularly. That makes him a crowd favorite, and it certainly looks like hustle.

But if you pay attention, you'll notice a large number of his blocks come only after he is caught out of position, or is beaten to the rim. He recovers well, but if he were a truly great defender he wouldn't need to block those shots in the first place. And let's not forget that every time he jumps wildly attempting to block a shot (read: every play) he ends up out of position for rebounds."

Posted by: bryc3 | November 15, 2010 1:25 PM

Like anything else, block shots can be good when pursued correctly, and costly when not. The larger issue is that blocked shots are far from the only measure of good interior D. So even if McGee was a masterful shotblocker with impeccable timing and positioning (which, clearly, he's not) that still, in and of itself, would not make hem a great interior defender. There are any number of other things (rotating into help position, stepping out on the pick and roll, stepping up in the lane to divert ball handlers and/or take charges before they get all the way to the rim) that constitute good defense and he doesn't do those well, at all.

Posted by: kalo_rama | November 15, 2010 3:06 PM | Report abuse

Javale is going to make an awfully good center for some other team next year. If
I were Javale I'd be out of DC and away from Saunders faster than a John Wall fast breaqk.

Posted by: bobilly1 | November 15, 2010 3:07 PM | Report abuse

I do mind Yi and HA closing games because in fact they rarely play any better than Mcgee and are often worse.

Yi is looking better as he becomes more familiar with the his teammates and the system. I think he's worth at least the qualifying offer next year.

Posted by: djnnnou | November 15, 2010 3:08 PM | Report abuse

"Will Mcgee ever develop? Is Flip developing him properly? All debatable, but the club's desire is for JM to be that guy. And they sent him a clear message in picking up his 4th year before the season."

Posted by: divi3 | November 15, 2010 2:02 PM

Hard to see any real "message" in that beyond "the guy has potential and he's cheap, so it's worth the nominal salary to find out how good he can be."

Posted by: kalo_rama | November 15, 2010 3:12 PM | Report abuse

Whether they sign him to an extension (and for how much) will be a much more meaningful "sign."

Posted by: kalo_rama | November 15, 2010 3:12 PM | Report abuse

"Well I'm tired of seeing guards breaking down our perimeter defense and flying unimpeded to the rim for lay-ins and dunks."

The problem is not just our perimeter defense, our bigs need to get in position between the penetrating player and the basket. If you look at other teams, Arenas never have problem breaking down the player who is guarding him, but other players will come and take up space to impede his path.

One more thing, I am not sure Flip should be credited with the success of his guards. Chauncey Billups was a lat boomer, he did not blossom until he went to Pistons and played for Larry Brown. On other hand, Sam Cassell was already pretty successful before he was coached by Flip. I am not sure how much Flip had a role in the their development.

Posted by: sagaliba | November 15, 2010 3:17 PM | Report abuse

Hard to see any real "message" in that beyond "the guy has potential and he's cheap, so it's worth the nominal salary to find out how good he can be."

They guaranteed him $2.4mill a full season before they had to make the decision, that's intended as a positive message from management to him. Don't believe me? Email Ted and he'll tell you himself.

Posted by: divi3 | November 15, 2010 3:27 PM | Report abuse

Straw man, straw man, dancing in the sun.

You didn't say it was just "a positive message." You said it was a "clear message" that they wanted him to be "that guy." It's not.

The only message it sends is that they think he was potential and that $2.4 mill (purse change in the NBA) is worth spending to find out what it is. The idea that picking up his option is some kind of indisputable sign that they think he's the future at starting C is nonsense.

Posted by: kalo_rama | November 15, 2010 3:43 PM | Report abuse

"One more thing, I am not sure Flip should be credited with the success of his guards. Chauncey Billups was a lat boomer, he did not blossom until he went to Pistons and played for Larry Brown."

Posted by: sagaliba | November 15, 2010 3:17 PM

Not true. Billups actually had his first breakout season playing under Saunders in Minnesota. (In the second half of that season, when he became the starter, I think he averaged something like 20 and 6.) It was that season that put him on the map as a FA target for Detroit. Moreover, Flip wanted to keep him but the Wolves (McHale) had follsihly committed big money to an aging, injured Terrell Brandon and were forced to let Chauncey walk.

Posted by: kalo_rama | November 15, 2010 3:49 PM | Report abuse

McGee is averaging just under 8 ppg on 62% shooting from the floor. Wouldn't it be a good idea to get the most efficient shooter on the team more touches on offense? I bet he could avg 10+ ppg and still shoot in the high 50s.

He has yet to attempt more than 8 field goals in a game this season. A little more offense from McGee could spur more 'awareness' on D...funny how that happens with young players.

Posted by: elfreako | November 15, 2010 3:51 PM | Report abuse

I personally do not like the way flip is coaching but i do agree on his actions to cut JM's minutes.JM nither rebound nor avoid simple gard penetration. If he can not do both why you all think he has to see more minutes? I know he has exiting dunks but the team is not going to win.Armstrong the slowest man in the team was able to minimize the penetration of the gards and his rebounding in 21 minute was 10 which is a very efficient defense.He also attempt to set a of screens.We have sale JM while his value is hot or wait for the two seasons, we will see him going to some where.He might be respected in NY but i still can not see him to be a starter.
Flip is a point gard coach,such coaches are prone to win the charity lane in the majority of the games.I do not think it is flip's coaching, it is due to the failure of our bigs to make a sound push to the rim to get the contact.

Posted by: gtefferra | November 15, 2010 3:54 PM | Report abuse

You didn't seriously use the word "shooter" to describe McGee, did you?

Posted by: kalo_rama | November 15, 2010 3:55 PM | Report abuse

They guaranteed him [McGee] $2.4mill a full season before they had to make the decision [on resigning him], that's intended as a positive message from management to him. Don't believe me? Email Ted and he'll tell you himself.

Posted by: divi3

As I'm sure you, as a fan, have noticed, fans tend to fall in love with the highlight reel players. Because the fans love them, the owners to do. After all, if your team isn't particularly good, it's the flashy players who will get customers to fill the seats.

Coaches? Well, they're tasked with winning, so they'd probably rather play guys who will do the "right thing" most of the time, rather than the spectacular every once in a while.

Gross generalization? Sure, but probably pretty true.

Posted by: Miks | November 15, 2010 4:02 PM | Report abuse

Want some insights into Flip, read here.
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1066847

Posted by: closg | November 15, 2010 4:05 PM | Report abuse

Kal... you're JaVale hateration is so last year. The kid actually has a nice shooting touch, why is that so hard for you to admit?

Posted by: elfreako | November 15, 2010 4:05 PM | Report abuse

Since when do the biased ravings of fans qualify as "insight"? Because they sure don't around here.

Posted by: kalo_rama | November 15, 2010 4:07 PM | Report abuse

"Kal... you're JaVale hateration is so last year. The kid actually has a nice shooting touch, why is that so hard for you to admit?"

Besides the fact that I don't think it's true?

Posted by: kalo_rama | November 15, 2010 4:09 PM | Report abuse

I should learn to proofread.

"Because the fans love them, the owners to do"
should read "Because the fans love them, the owners to too."

Posted by: Miks | November 15, 2010 4:09 PM | Report abuse

"So you're saying rather than judging Flip's offense over the past 10 seasons, I should be looking at his 28-62 record as the Wizard's head coach?Posted by: divi3"

Well, yeah -- instead of looking at 3 different teams with very different players, you should focus on the team he's coaching now. We have 90 games, after all. That's enough. Although the Before Gilbert and After Gilbert versions are pretty different.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 4:10 PM | Report abuse

I personally do not like the way flip is coaching but i do agree on his actions to cut JM's minutes.JM nither rebound nor avoid simple gard penetration. If he can not do both why you all think he has to see more minutes? I know he has exiting dunks but the team is not going to win.Armstrong the slowest man in the team was able to minimize the penetration of the gards and his rebounding in 21 minute was 10 which is a very efficient defense.He also attempt to set a of screens.We have sale JM while his value is hot or wait for the two seasons, we will see him going to some where.He might be respected in NY but i still can not see him to be a starter.
Flip is a point gard coach,such coaches are prone to win the charity lane in the majority of the games.I do not think it is flip's coaching, it is due to the failure of our bigs to make a sound push to the rim to get the contact.

Posted by: gtefferra | November 15, 2010 3:54 PM | Report abuse

you're higher than i am!

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | November 15, 2010 4:11 PM | Report abuse

""Because the fans love them, the owners to do"should read "Because the fans love them, the owners to too."Posted by: Miks"

One more time...

Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 4:12 PM | Report abuse

"So you're saying rather than judging Flip's offense over the past 10 seasons, I should be looking at his 28-62 record as the Wizard's head coach?Posted by: divi3"

Well, yeah -- instead of looking at 3 different teams with very different players, you should focus on the team he's coaching now. We have 90 games, after all. That's enough. Although the Before Gilbert and After Gilbert versions are pretty different.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 4:10 PM | Report abuse

So with a 28-62 record as wizards head coach, what has impressed you? what has flip brought here that has been good?

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | November 15, 2010 4:16 PM | Report abuse

"If you look at other teams, Arenas never have problem breaking down the player who is guarding him, but other players will come and take up space to impede his path. posted by sagaliba"

When Gilbert's on, the way he was the other night, I don't know of anybody in the NBA who can guard him without a struggle. Maybe Kobe. No, I doubt that.

He's not on that often, however.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 4:17 PM | Report abuse

""Because the fans love them, the owners to do"should read "Because the fans love them, the owners to too."Posted by: Miks"

One more time...

Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 4:12 PM | Report abuse

this time say ".....the owners doo doo" lls

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | November 15, 2010 4:19 PM | Report abuse

"Do you actually read the entire post or do you just skim through stuff? This is what Kalo_rama wrote ridiculing Larry on his spelling. posted by spades"

OK guy -- I think when he put 'acquisce' in quotes, he was making fun. I think he knows perfectly well how to spell acquiesce.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 4:20 PM | Report abuse

but do you know the proper speeling of queef?

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | November 15, 2010 4:22 PM | Report abuse

"So with a 28-62 record as wizards head coach, what has impressed you? what has flip brought here that has been good?Posted by: lilhollywood10"

I'm not following this argument. See, the issue was the significance of Flip's 10 year coaching record (which was discussed in an article elsewhere). My point was that he coached different teams with different players, as well as different expectations, during that period. We've got 90 games in which he coached THIS team, so why not stick with that? It eliminates a number of confounding variables. Otherwise we'll have to account for the vast differences between, say, having Kevin Garnett, Ben Wallace, or Javale McGee at center.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 4:25 PM | Report abuse

"So with a 28-62 record as wizards head coach, what has impressed you? what has flip brought here that has been good?Posted by: lilhollywood10"

I'm not following this argument. See, the issue was the significance of Flip's 10 year coaching record (which was discussed in an article elsewhere). My point was that he coached different teams with different players, as well as different expectations, during that period. We've got 90 games in which he coached THIS team, so why not stick with that? It eliminates a number of confounding variables. Otherwise we'll have to account for the vast differences between, say, having Kevin Garnett, Ben Wallace, or Javale McGee at center.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 4:25 PM | Report abuse

No,no,no. The issue wasn't the significance of his 10 yr coaching record at all. Divi brought up a stat that only once in his 10 yr coaching career had a Flip Saunders coached team gotten to the FT line more than their opponents (I assume these are cumulative season totals). I thought it was an interesting stat. What it points to and what Divi was trying to draw attention to, is for all this "play in the post", "we need more from our bigs", Flip Saunders historically coaches soft, jump shooting teams.
He even linked to a minnesota fan site where random fans wrote in talking about how when he was their coach Flip ran a asystem to get guys open. Flip is credited for expanding KG's game and extending his range, kinda like Ab, only he takes his jumpers from everywhere not just the elbow.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | November 15, 2010 4:33 PM | Report abuse

My point was that he coached different teams with different players, as well as different expectations, during that period.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 4:25 PM | Report abuse

I think the counter point is that only once in his career, has he been able to get a group of guys together and have them follow his system and have them get to this line more than their opponents.


For all the players getting called out for being "All style no substance" look at your head coach. By the standards that we judge our players on (ie winning championships) Flip Saunders has done nothing. Yet a buncha 50 win flameouts gets everyone's panties moist. I'll do as you said and judge him on his 28-62 coaching record in DC.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | November 15, 2010 4:39 PM | Report abuse

Keys To The Palace: Wall And Yi Shine In An Uneven Week For The Wizards
http://www.bulletsforever.com/2010/11/15/1814697/keys-to-the-palace-wall-and-yi-shine-in-an-uneven-week-for-the-wizards

"Flip Saunders' criticisms of McGee's weakness after Friday's game were spot on. It's encouraging to see that he's taking the committment to rebounding to heart, but hopefully he understands there is more to being a great defender than cleaning the glass."

Posted by: Miks | November 15, 2010 4:46 PM | Report abuse

Keys To The Palace: Wall And Yi Shine In An Uneven Week For The Wizards
http://www.bulletsforever.com/2010/11/15/1814697/keys-to-the-palace-wall-and-yi-shine-in-an-uneven-week-for-the-wizards

From that same site:


"Watching Yi come through with a strong game against countrymate Yao Ming with 13 points, 7 rebounds and four blocks wasn't a surprise. Watching him follow it up with a six block performance against Charlotte was. Whenever you can increase your season block totals by 600 percent, you get a key, no questions asked."

So I guess Yi's blocks are the good ones and Mcgee's are the bad ones?

Posted by: divi3 | November 15, 2010 4:51 PM | Report abuse

"I think the counter point is that only once in his career, has he been able to get a group of guys together and have them follow his system and have them get to this line more than their opponents.For all the players getting called out for being "All style no substance" look at your head coach. By the standards that we judge our players on (ie winning championships) Flip Saunders has done nothing. Yet a buncha 50 win flameouts gets everyone's panties moist. I'll do as you said and judge him on his 28-62 coaching record in DC.Posted by: lilhollywood10"

You've significantly distorted what I said. Which is this: Flip coached 3 different teams during the period in question (probably more than 820 games). That means a number of different players, with different talents. To judge his offensive scheme in that one respect -- getting to the free throw line vs the same thing for his opponents -- you would have to account for a whole bunch of variables, beginning with the simple fact that he coached three different teams. Easier (thought still not easy) would be to account for the much smaller variation in the Wizards roster over the course of the 90 games he coached here.

See, the point isn't whether or not Flip had a good record as a head coach in Washington -- he hasn't. The point is whether his offensive coaching style is somehow responsible for the Wiz' getting fewer trips to the line than they should, and that this somehow contributes to the won-loss record.

I don't think that's been proven at all. Very good teams like Boston and the Lakers have shot about the same number of FT attempts as the Wiz over the first eight games. And they win. If the Wiz were averaging, say, 8 attempts per game, that would be evidence for your point. But they aren't.

I think you want to argue about something else, but this is actually a very specific question which has yet to be answered.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 4:58 PM | Report abuse

"No,no,no. The issue wasn't the significance of his 10 yr coaching record at all. Divi brought up a stat that only once in his 10 yr coaching career had a Flip Saunders coached team gotten to the FT line more than their opponents (I assume these are cumulative season totals). I thought it was an interesting stat. What it points to and what Divi was trying to draw attention to, is for all this "play in the post", "we need more from our bigs", Flip Saunders historically coaches soft, jump shooting teams."

Slow down for a minute. The problem is that during Flip's 10 years -- the period divi got from the article -- he didn't coach one team, the way Gregg Popovich did, but three very different teams. Some of those teams won a whole lot of games, some won very few. To draw the conclusion that you want to draw, you're going to have to prove that the disparity wasn't caused by some other collection of factors: for instance, the makeup of the team, game circumstances, to name just a couple. Most importantly, you're going to have to prove that the problem isn't really on the defensive side -- in other words, are Flip's teams just fouling too much when the other team has the ball? Because that's a different problem, isn't it?

We haven't established any of that yet. So from my perspective, we're basically just jumping to conclusions, which is not a way to establish anything.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 5:08 PM | Report abuse

There are a lot of people on this blog who seem to confuse blocked shots with good defense. It's true that McGee is tremendously athletic, and he blocks shots with ease regularly. That makes him a crowd favorite, and it certainly looks like hustle.

But if you pay attention, you'll notice a large number of his blocks come only after he is caught out of position, or is beaten to the rim. He recovers well, but if he were a truly great defender he wouldn't need to block those shots in the first place. And let's not forget that every time he jumps wildly attempting to block a shot (read: every play) he ends up out of position for rebounds.

Flip knows this. People who play basketball know this. The entire organization (not to mention USA Basketball) have made it perfectly clear what McGee needs to do: get better at positioning, don't leave your feet, box out, clog the middle.

He refuses to do it, so he sits on the bench in crunch time. It's true that if he were on the floor in the fourth quarter, he might make an amazing block. But he'll also give up easy rebounds and layups, take an ill=advised flying sky hook, and exhibit a horrifying basketball IQ. The kid is a great athlete, but he can't play basketball. See Young, Nick and Blatche, Andray.

Posted by: bryc3 | November 15, 2010 1:25 PM | Report abuse

BRYC3 - And I'm not one of those people who confuse blocks with good defense. I will be one of the first to tell you JM still needs alot of work, but what I have a problem with is how in the dang world is having Yi or Armstrong out there in crunch time better then McGee?

Now if we had Tyson Chandler, Marcin Gortat or even Nazr Mohammed then I would not have any problems with Flip sitting JM, but seeing that we don't have one of these three and all we have is Armstrong and Yi; Please tell me how benching JM makes any kind of sense?

We are in a rebuilding year,let's face it Flip. That is why we do not need a veteran coach like him who was brought in to "touch-up" a veteran team. We need a young coach like Sam Cassell or if we are looking for a veteran coach who is still young I would suggest Mike Brown. This dude nows how to coach defense.

Lastly, I am so tired of the old school folks like Flip talking about having too much style without substance. Just to put you on notice Flip, STYLE is SUBSTANCE if used correctly with the right balnce.

*** Flip is trying to make Javele a dang robot. And why is it when Keven Garnett does all the things he does (style stuff) he is allowed a free pass with Flip? When Keven was young he was doing some of the same stuff Javele does, but Flip never called him out...???

Posted by: BulletsFever | November 15, 2010 5:12 PM | Report abuse

See, the point isn't whether or not Flip had a good record as a head coach in Washington -- he hasn't. The point is whether his offensive coaching style is somehow responsible for the Wiz' getting fewer trips to the line than they should, and that this somehow contributes to the won-loss record.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 4:58 PM | Report abuse

How can that be the point when this argument was brought up by someone saying that over Flip's 10 yr career his teams have only gotten to the line more than the opposition once?

Flip's teams have shot more FTs than their opponents exactly one time over the course of 10 seasons. That's a large sample size and some would say proof-positive that for all Flip's talk about the need for interior play and "big butts" in the post- he runs a jumpshooting offense. Always has, always will.

Posted by: divi3 | November 15, 2010 10:13 AM | Report abuse

You didn't raise this POINT, divi3 did. You combated it by saying that we should just worry about the wizards and made it a wizards based stat.

Hmmm... aren't we mostly interested in the Wizards? In Flip's first year, the Wiz averaged 23.1 FT attempts per game. So far this season, they're averaging an even 22. That's not so out of line. Boston, for instance, is currently averaging 21.7 attempts, the Lakers 23.8. The Magic have averaged 28.3, despite being mostly a jumpshooting team. New Orleans, the NBA's hottest club, shoots around 25 a game.

Just not a real big difference between, say, the Wiz, Boston, and LA. I think Wall is not getting some of the calls he should, but that's a rookie-ref issue. The real problem IMO is how many FT attempts the opponent is getting -- and that's about the defense, not the offense.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 11:34 AM | Report abuse


Once again, i think that the only point of this is to get you to look at the fact that Flip's offenses have only shot more free throws than one other team in 10 seasons of him coaching them. I suppose we can draw conclusions from that but no one said that FTs is the reason we win or lose.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | November 15, 2010 5:13 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 5:08 PM | Report abuse

The stat is a fact and there are a multitude of reasons why that factual occurence happened with the same person 9 out of ten times, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen.
If Javale McGee Jumps on 9 out of 10 pump fakes, some of you all will say he jumps for every pump fake, and then the prevailing sentiment will be that he always jumps for pump fakes. Flip Saunders teams coming in last in FTs 9 out of 10 times says something about him and the system they were running, it also says something about the players and the defenses the faced.You can try to take into account all of the variables but why not look at the constants? Flip Saunders,his scheme,his system.
I'm sure that some of these 10 seasons coincided with his string of 50 win seasons, so no one is saying that losing the FT battle means losing games. but it may be an indicator of what you're doing out there. I'll get off this whole flip ft thing. He's not a winner,has never been a winner. Eddie Jordan got run out of town (it was right at the time) after 4 playoff appearances and we got nothing but apologists for our 28-62 coach puhleaz.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | November 15, 2010 5:25 PM | Report abuse

"Do you actually read the entire post or do you just skim through stuff? This is what Kalo_rama wrote ridiculing Larry on his spelling. posted by spades"

OK guy -- I think when he put 'acquisce' in quotes, he was making fun. I think he knows perfectly well how to spell acquiesce.


Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 4:20 PM

Well, I think when Kalo_rama put "acquisce" in quotation he thought he was indicating the correct spelling. You don't ridicule sombody on his spelling by using your own misspelled version. If he wanted to make fun of Larry he would have used Larry's version,"Acquiscence".

Posted by: spades72 | November 15, 2010 6:17 PM | Report abuse

He's not a winner,has never been a winner. Posted by: lilhollywood10

If you don't think 10 seasons as an NBA head coach makes him a winner, then there is something wrong with you. I didn't think Eddie Jordan should be fired, and after he was I thought Dwane Casey would of been a better hire, but give Flip his due.

BTW Doc Rivers' teams have made it to the line more than their opponents only 2 out of 10 seasons. Those 2 times don't include last two seasons with the 3 future HOFers. What's that say about Doc?

Posted by: djnnnou | November 15, 2010 7:33 PM | Report abuse

"Well, I think when Kalo_rama put "acquisce" in quotation he thought he was indicating the correct spelling. You don't ridicule sombody on his spelling by using your own misspelled version. If he wanted to make fun of Larry he would have used Larry's version,"Acquiscence".Posted by: spades72"

LOL OK suit yourself.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 8:45 PM | Report abuse

"[Flip's] not a winner,has never been a winner. Eddie Jordan got run out of town (it was right at the time) after 4 playoff appearances and we got nothing but apologists for our 28-62 coach puhleaz.Posted by: lilhollywood10"

OK you too -- suit yourself. I tried.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 8:48 PM | Report abuse

"Just to put you on notice Flip, STYLE is SUBSTANCE if used correctly with the right balnce. posted by bulletsfever"

I'm pretty sure substance and style have different meanings.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 8:51 PM | Report abuse

"BTW Doc Rivers' teams have made it to the line more than their opponents only 2 out of 10 seasons. Those 2 times don't include last two seasons with the 3 future HOFers. What's that say about Doc?Posted by: djnnnou"

Not much. It's pretty much a meaningless observation. You'd have to drill down a ways to see if there was any depth to it.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 15, 2010 8:52 PM | Report abuse

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