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Posted at 8:05 AM ET, 11/18/2010

Another embarrassing loss to an elite team

By Michael Lee
Morning brew

The Wizards have three wins this season against teams with a combined eight wins. The Boston Celtics claimed their Eastern Conference-leading ninth victory with their 114-83 annihilation of the Wizards on Wednesday night.

Before the season ends, the Wizards will get a win against team with a winning record, but until then, they should at least settle for being competitive. Aside from their second game against Atlanta, that hasn't been the case for the Wizards. Three of the Wizards' seven losses this season have been by 21 or more points, and they have simply been pummeled against elite teams. Orlando and Boston, the Eastern Conference finalists from last season, have demolished the Wizards by a combined 60 points.

"We've got to be able to compete with the best," Nick Young said after scoring a team-high 20 points against the Celtics, "and [Wednesday] we showed that we can't."

It was an embarrassing loss in which the supposedly washed up Kevin Garnett repeatedly beat them down the floor to catch lobs from Rajon Rondo. The Celtics were just toying with the Wizards, and Shaquille O'Neal had one of his easiest nights of the season, as he repeatedly dunked with Wizards defenders orbiting around him instead of fouling him. Garnett once snuck out of bounds and slid back on the court to catch an alley-oop pass from Rondo with JaVale McGee and Andray Blatche looking around trying to figure out where he came from.

John Wall was sidelined for the second straight game with a sprained left foot, but Coach Flip Saunders refused to use it as an excuse," We didn't play him [against Toronto] and we won. Not much to say."

Wall wouldn't have been able to make much of a difference against the Celtics. With Garnett and O'Neal Boston had much more size than Orlando, which simply punished the Wizards with Dwight Howard. The Celtics didn't have a shot blocking presence -- Rondo and Delonte West, making his season debut after a 10-game suspension for a gun possession charge, had the only two blocked shots for the team -- but they made the Wizards work for everything they got. The Wizards had just 31 field goals. The Celtics had 32 assists as a team.

"We couldn't establish anything at all," Saunders said. "They just manhandled us at every spot."

FROM THE POST
Here are Michael Lee's game story and post-game wrap-up.

In non-Wizards news, Portland Trail Blazers center Greg Oden is out for the season -- again -- and needs microfracture surgery on his left knee (The Early Lead).

Updated: And Eva Longoria has filed for divorce from Spurs guard Tony Parker, amid reports that she found hundreds of text messages from another woman, who turned out to be Erin Barry (the wife of San Antonio Spur Brent Barry), on Parker's phone (Celebritology 2.0).

AROUND THE WEB
In the Boston Globe, Julian Benbow writes that Kevin Garnett looked to make Andray Blatche disappear after their infamous battles last season. Gary Washburn also looks into the return of D.C. area native Delonte West, who made his season debut after serving a 10-game suspension for gun possession charges.

Truth About It's Kyle Weidie chronicles the history of men playing against boys.

Before the blowout loss, Kelly Dwyer (Ball Don't Lie) and Kyle Weidie (DCist) both examined Gilbert Arenas's well-rounded performance against Toronto on Tuesday.

By Michael Lee  | November 18, 2010; 8:05 AM ET
Categories:  Morning brew  
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Next: Andray Blatche omitted from Eastern Conference all-star ballot

Comments

IF the Wizards go with Andray Blatche at power forward the rest of the season expect mostly the same results as last night against the better teams. He is not the whole problem but he is one of the issues this team has. Of course if they move him this early it will be an admittance that he should have never been resigned in the first place. Just one of the many mistakes in judgement this GM has made in evaluating his rosters over the years.

Posted by: dandyhuffman | November 18, 2010 8:33 AM | Report abuse

Blatche is clearly hampered by injury. He lost his agility and could not do much inside. 2 of his 4 FGs were 3 pointers. Our 2 starting forwards were out rebounded by two starting guards 4 to 7! McGee got 10 rebounds, looks good on stats, but when he got offensive rebounds, he seldom kicked out, and would attempt a wild shot regardless of where he was. In the end his offensive rebounds worth nothing unless he is close enough for a dunk. Neither Arenas nor Hinrich shooting well, we were just outmatched.

Now comes to garbage time, can Hudson shoot at all? This guy shot 0 for 9 for the season! Seraphin also missed all his shots in point blank range, and he doesn't even know how to set a correct pick! Where do we find our reserves?

Posted by: sagaliba | November 18, 2010 9:29 AM | Report abuse

Look what else can you expect from this team? Look everywhere on the roster and all you had is youth. Even the veterans on the team are in their early 20s. So what does lack of talent and youth get you? Uneven performances. Against the Rapters of the NBA, you can expect a competitive game and perhaps a little over .500 record. Against the elites, better get ready for blowouts like this.

Posted by: tundey | November 18, 2010 9:43 AM | Report abuse

After one night of moving the ball well against Raptors, they resorted back to standing around. And it shows on the stats, against Raptors, 28 assists, against Celtics, 12 assists.

Posted by: sagaliba | November 18, 2010 9:48 AM | Report abuse

the Cs are just much better than the Wizards, factor in they had a hot shooting night and games like that are bound to happen. That said, our perimeter defense still looks just as suspect as the interior D. Cs couldnt miss, but they got too many wide open look 16ft+

Mcgee played great I thought, or at least relative to the rest of our team. 5 offensive boards, 7pts, 2blocks, 2stls against Shaq and the Cs in the 1st half. That is ballin

Posted by: divi3 | November 18, 2010 9:48 AM | Report abuse

I didn't think this was a winnable game and there will be a couple hopefully not many games like this in a rebuilding situation. Think about the three straight seasons the thunder had top 5 picks before they took the eventual champs to 6 games. The thunder cheered even during losses. We need to be patient and watch the development of the team which is happening. McGee IS developing, Wall is cutting down Turnovers, Booker is being productive. Enjoy the few wins we have but be entertained by the development. Its a low standard but we are rebuilding

Posted by: jefferu | November 18, 2010 10:01 AM | Report abuse

"Against the elites, better get ready for blowouts like this.Posted by: tundey"

Particularly on their home court. Pierce was on record in the Boston papers talking about how they needed to make sure they didn't slack off when a team like the Wiz came to town. Mentioned one of their two losses was an upset a few weeks ago at home against hated Cleveland, that embarrassed the Celts' veterans.

I caught some of the Phoenix game in Miami last night. The Heat were up by 27 at the end of the third quarter, and it could easily have been 35. It happens.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 18, 2010 10:30 AM | Report abuse

As a fan, I am encouraged. They look good when they do win, and that is something to build on. Imagine if they looked bad even against bad and mediocre teams -- that would be discouraging.

Posted by: etin | November 18, 2010 10:33 AM | Report abuse

"5 offensive boards, 7pts, 2blocks, 2stls against Shaq and the Cs in the 1st half. That is ballin. Posted by: divi3"

McGee got 6 offensive boards for the game, and only 4 on the defensive end. The Celts weren't missing much, while the Wiz were off-target all night, presenting plenty of opportunities for o-rebounds. Kevin Seraphin got 3 offensive boards in just 9 minutes. Meanwhile Boston had the edge in defensive rebounds, 29 to 18.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 18, 2010 10:39 AM | Report abuse

In retrospect it's laughable that some were impressed w/ a Wizards' starting line-up coming into this season of McGee, Blatche, a returning Josh Howard, Arenas and Wall. No doubt that Wall would be a standout, but the other 4 guys would either be buried on some other team's bench or not even have made the squad in the first place.

Posted by: randysbailin | November 18, 2010 10:45 AM | Report abuse

McGee got 6 offensive boards for the game, and only 4 on the defensive end. The Celts weren't missing much, while the Wiz were off-target all night, presenting plenty of opportunities for o-rebounds.

Mcgee was the leading rebounder in the game for either team, not sure why that would be spun as anything other than a strong game for the kid.

Kevin Seraphin got 3 offensive boards in just 9 minutes.

He got those 3 boards in 90secs. The last 90secs of the game with Von Wafer and Harangody on the floor. Not quite the same thing as KG, Shaq, and Davis in the paint.

Posted by: divi3 | November 18, 2010 11:02 AM | Report abuse

Bring back Alonzo Gee!

Posted by: PostSubscriber | November 18, 2010 11:12 AM | Report abuse

Garnett said, "This is a team that gave us problems last year and we haven't forgotten that. I haven't. Paul and I got here and could hear [former Celtic and current Wizards assistant coach] Sam Cassell about how young they were and how they were going to come at us. We made note of it. We talked about it, you know, before the game and coming out here, taking care of business.

Thanks Sam.

Posted by: djnnnou | November 18, 2010 11:27 AM | Report abuse

I agree. Bring back Gee! Release Hudson.

Posted by: WallyWutMD | November 18, 2010 11:31 AM | Report abuse

BLATCHE was hurting and not 100% that was obvious.

McGEE showed up, played hard, and was occasionally effective AGAINST BOSTON's front-line, a baby-step of improvement.

THORNTON was very effective.

NICK YOUNG (am I really saying this?) is doing his thing. but in addition to dropping shots all over the floor, he's no longer a statue. He's actually moving with the flow (such as it was) of the offense, and getting in the way of opposing players at least on defense.

KIRK HINRICH was also effective in spurts.

And BOOKER appeared to be learning on both ends of the floor.

But it looked like amature night from the WIZZIES standpoint, and a well-oiled machine from the CELTS end.

And by that I'm referring to the coaching. I mean BOSTON plays as a team, not as a collective of individuals or pairs.

The defense was air-tight on the green end, and the positioning, movement and passes on offense were absolutely surgical.

By comparison, the WIZ only rarely put up an effective defense, and the offense was just stifled by the green defense. They just couldn't run the sets and plays drawn up.

Well, at least they handed out plenty of welts, and loosened some CELTIC teeth while absorbing a few blows in return.

The WIZZIES wet themselves.....again. FLIP, time for a diaper change.....again. I dispair of this club ever growing from babies to adolescence, let alone man-hood ala the CELTICS. This must be grinding on SAUNDERS like 'wet' sandpaper.

Posted by: glawrence007 | November 18, 2010 11:33 AM | Report abuse

Saunders said. "They just manhandled us at every spot."

Especially the head coaching spot...but that happens almost every game

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | November 18, 2010 11:33 AM | Report abuse

Kevin Seraphin needs to play full-time hoops either in the D-League or overseas, 30 minutes a game for two years, then bring him back. Until then, we need to find replacements for Neck, Hamady, and Hudson. Neck is under-contract, but sorry, Hudson will have to go for an upgrade, Scottie Reynolds is a better baller.

Posted by: closg | November 18, 2010 11:38 AM | Report abuse

I don't know that I'd characterize this as "embarrassing" so much as "predictable." Seriously, why would you expect anything different?

Anyone who blames this loss on coaching is an A-grade idiot.

Posted by: kalo_rama | November 18, 2010 12:12 PM | Report abuse

Yeah, McGee played hard. But as I said, if after his offensive rebound, all he does is just throw up a wild shot, then the rebound is useless. If he has the shot, sure, take it; but if he is out of position, kick out and reset. McGee seems unable to distinguish a good shot vs. a bad one.

Posted by: sagaliba | November 18, 2010 12:15 PM | Report abuse

"Mcgee was the leading rebounder in the game for either team, not sure why that would be spun as anything other than a strong game for the kid. posted by divi3"

Not spun at all, just noted. That's what you're supposed to do with facts.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 18, 2010 12:19 PM | Report abuse

I don't consider this an ambarrassing loss. The Celts throttled Miami worse out the gate than us. You had to expect this type of game from the Celtics. They are not recent champions for nothing.

As champions though they exploited something about us that reveils the greatest weakness in this Wizard Team.

THE INSIDE GAME.

Flip rather concentrate on jump shooting and guard play than developing the best Big Man Game with the players that we have.

On the radio Glen commented in the 3rd quarter how it seemed that the Celtics whole offense just destroyed us and scored at will in the paint.

You can bet this was by design coming from Doc Rivers and the Celtics. And to top it off with icing on the cake they shot lights out as well, over 60% for the game.

Though Yi was out, Saunders has got to put a major emphasis on playing his bigs; McGee, Blatche, Yi, Armstrong, Seraphin, and Booker together more as a unit and a major consistent strategy. Thornton and Howard and Young at times should be involved at the three in consort with the Bigs.

Flip's strategy for the Big Man game is an individual strategy.

Flip must develop and put as much emphasis on a cohesive Big Man Game. As much as he puts into small ball, he must put more into big ball.

With two guards like Wall and Arenas, the Bigs that we have must be given more emphasis as a unit and not just individual players to be played and yanked behind one another.

The strategy of replacing McGee is an old and tired one. The first big off the bench should be interchangeable to replace Blatch or Thornton as well. Booker for Thornton, Armstrong for Blatch, keep it flexible and interesting, Yi for Thornton; it adds competition and comraderie in the bigs. McGee, Yi, and Booker; Armstrong, Blatch, and Booker; Thornton, McGee, Armstrong; ecetera.

Flips one-way strategy with the bigs is flawed and the Boston Celtics exposed it tremendously last night.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | November 18, 2010 12:21 PM | Report abuse

"Saunders said. "They just manhandled us at every spot."Especially the head coaching spot...but that happens almost every game
Posted by: bulletsfan78"

Yeah, that was great coaching by Doc. "OK guys, just go out and play. By the way, starters, make sure you hit 7 in 10 shots."

Jeez louise.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 18, 2010 12:23 PM | Report abuse

The biggest problem I see with the Wizards defense is that they do not play off the ball defense. There is just too much ball watching and too much ball chasing. How many times do we see guys like Hilton Armstrong leave the painted area runs out at the ball handler and gets beat when the pass goes inside. They always seems to have 2 or 3 guys that flows to the ball handler or the passer and pay little or no attention to the man who is cutting to the basket or moving to the open spot. The extra pass and ball movement led to 32 assist and 66% shooting from the field for the Celtics last night. My thing is, guard your man, keep good postion and rotate when there is a breakdown.

Posted by: spades72 | November 18, 2010 12:25 PM | Report abuse

Yeah, that was great coaching by Doc. "OK guys, just go out and play. By the way, starters, make sure you hit 7 in 10 shots."

Jeez louise.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 18, 2010 12:23 PM | Report abuse

I think Doc does more then that...maybe that's the way Flip should have coached when he was with the Pistons?

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | November 18, 2010 12:31 PM | Report abuse

I was debating which team was worst in the league between the Raptors and the Wiz but Tuesday's win proved to me that we were next to worst. Only a bunch of delusional people on here expected this team to win more than 25 games.
We mention youth, inexperience, patience but the main issue is that again, this team has no direction and beside Wall and McGee (still debatable), I don't see any future. Grunfailed botched 2 out 3 first round picks and somehow still gets to retain his job under the rebuilding mantra. If you really want to rebuild successfully (after you were the one responsible for crashing the franchise), why would you start with 2 vastly undersized picks (6'7 power forward, 6'8 center)? Both players would probably have been available in the second round because of their lack of size.
And I don't even want to get started on other picks (i.e $17 million for Hinrich...).
Whether some of you want to believe it or not, this team is years away from relevance and since the owner is banking on draft picks for the team's success, winning will start about 3-4 years after consecutive successful drafts. And don't expect to get lucky every year with a lottery win and a player of JWall's caliber. As long as Grunfailed is still running the show, this team is going nowhere and has no direction no matter how many different tactical interpretations you wanna write about on this blog.
Or maybe we should all be encouraged because Nick Young made a few jumpers, or because Cartier Martin made a defensive stop or because Blatche made 2 3-pointers?
Wake up all, this team is flat out horrible, which in and of itself isn't the main concern. The issue is the lack if direction and the bleak future.
The silver lining is that we are getting to see less of Melodious' insanity.

Posted by: Utilityman1 | November 18, 2010 12:35 PM | Report abuse

Yeah, McGee played hard. But as I said, if after his offensive rebound, all he does is just throw up a wild shot, then the rebound is useless. If he has the shot, sure, take it; but if he is out of position, kick out and reset. McGee seems unable to distinguish a good shot vs. a bad one.

According to espn, he was 2-4 on shots taken directly after an offensive rebound. I think he put up two terrible ones in the 1st quarter, but that was it?

Not that it's acceptable, I just think as far as last night goes- he was the last guy on the roster who needed to be looking on the mirror.

Posted by: divi3 | November 18, 2010 12:41 PM | Report abuse

I bet Nick is shooting his way into the rotation, this team's offense is just as bad as its defense. He's been solid defensively and can actually score when a defender is near him- something of a premium so far with this group.

Posted by: divi3 | November 18, 2010 12:46 PM | Report abuse

The Wizards have never allowed an opponent to shoot 65-percent from the field or better in the last 25 seasons until Wednesday night. The 65.8% shot by Boston is the most since January 31, 1990 when the world champion Detroit Pistons shot 64.7 percent in a 133-109 win over the Washington Bullets. Truth About It

I'd go with gutless over embarrassing. It's hard to say that Blatche and Arenas were disappointing given their history, but the Wizards need more out of them in the tough games. Blatche shouldn't be on the floor if the knee is preventing him from competing. It looked to me like he quit early in the 1st after not getting a call.

Posted by: djnnnou | November 18, 2010 12:50 PM | Report abuse

@Larry

Two flaws in your thinking. First, they could have played five bigs last night and they still would not have been able to handle someone of Shaq's size on the low box. It was physics more than effort or lineup. Second, assuming you put your third big in the game, he now has the responsibility of covering Paul Pierce. Meaning he has to chase Pierce around the floor, off of screens, etc. Otherwise Pierce gets his choice of open looks. We saw what he could do with the open looks he got last night.

I actually think last night was Flip's most effective substitution pattern for McGee that I've seen. McGee played flat out the entire time he was on floor, and the stretches where he sat gave him ample time to catch his breath. Not sure where he is vis a vis his conditioning and asthma, but not knowing that, it seemed like the rotation kept him fresh the entire game.

Posted by: ts35 | November 18, 2010 1:01 PM | Report abuse

div3,

I am not blaming McGee for the loss at all. As I said, the team is outmatched, and that means the whole team. Our two staring forwards got only 4 rebounds combined, and two staring guards did not shoot the ball well. Besides, the whole team stood around on offense. McGee was the one who showed hassle and played hard.

We all know this is a learning season for our young players, and I critic as such.

Posted by: sagaliba | November 18, 2010 1:03 PM | Report abuse

Now Is The Time To Judge Us


In our next game we should have Wall & Yi back with Gil starting if Flip is smart. We will have our full lineup except for Howard who is a big piece but isnt playing just yet. We will finally have our real starting lineup with Gil & Thorton unless Flip figures out a way to start Kirk again. We also have some winnable games coming up. The 1st one will be real tough as Memphis has the atheletes on the perimiter to give us fits and the big guys inside that we cant matchup with.

I understand the National & even local media ripping us but I think us as fans should atleast not fully judge the team until we are close to being complete. We still wont be full go without Howard and even then we will still be much better later on when Gil & Dray get healthier & knock the rust off but I still think now you will see glimpses of more of the real Wiz. If we still continue to lose then you can rip us but I dont think you can do that until next game or maybe even the game after since this will only be our 1st game together & the Grizz have a tough lineup.

Dray made me sick last game as his effort looked like crap and he's still taking the worst shots ever but Ill cut him some slack since he's still coming back and keeps getting banged up in the process. Some people say that he's been back long enough but I dont think people really realize how long it takes. You can just miss the whole Summer, play ball for a month and a half and think a guy is going to play the same he did at the end of last season. Its not enough time yet. It takes way longer then fans want to allow. Gil also made me mad again last game by making quick drives but then pulling way off the gas & finishing softly at the rim.

Posted by: dlts2041 | November 18, 2010 1:10 PM | Report abuse

the wiz won't win a game this year against a team with a strong inside game. McGee had no chance against O'Neal, a guy way past his prime. He's hustling and improving, but he's not there yet. not even close.

Blatche is the real disappointment. I hope it's an injury. But he is completely ineffective this year. he might as well be on the bench.

Arenas looks like he could work himself back. He's very heavy, and he doesn't seem to have the confidence to really go for it. I'm kind of optimisitic that he will improve as the season wears on.

Nick Young looked good last might. Like somebody said, he's moving without the ball. let's hope he can work consistently.

Thourton looks like a keeper.

Wall, of course, will be very good to great. is it just me - i know his assist number are good - but i think arenas is a better passer right now.

Booker is too short. Maybe they can get him to grow five inches.

Hinrich makes too many mistakes for a veteran. he's a good bench asset in case somebody gets hurt. plays way too much in my opinion. keep arenas in there to play his way back.

the rest of the guys don't even belong in the nba. did somebody get paid to pick those guys?


Posted by: stevie2 | November 18, 2010 1:10 PM | Report abuse

I bet Nick is shooting his way into the rotation, this team's offense is just as bad as its defense. He's been solid defensively and can actually score when a defender is near him- something of a premium so far with this group.

Posted by: divi3

Nick has been fairly consistent lately and I do think he has worked his way into a few more minutes and a 'designated shooter' almost Microwave-like role that we've all been debating. It's a short stretch though, and partly fueled by Wall's absence, so we'll have to see if it continues. He seems to be playing with consistent effort, but his shot has also been falling. I'm curious to see how he responds if he starts having a bad shooting night. He'll probably also be impacted if and when Howard comes back healthy.

The other nice part though has been the way Nick has been getting his shots. He definitely seems to be getting the majority of them out of the offense as designed. He does seem to be a big more active with the dribble now than he was earlier in the season / pre season, but it's more getting to spots and pulling up, rather than getting to the rim.

He's still in a bit of a fight though because KH is still the guard Flip trusts most, Wall is the Wunderkin, and Gil is Gil. So when all three are healthy, Young will tend to get squeezed. Since he was one of the few who seemed to have it going offensively last night, I would have been tempted to play him a bit more last night than Gil. Last night Gil didn't seem to have a particular advantage over Ray, but Young would be a bit more difficult of a matchup. Wouldn't have changed the outcome, but with a team this young and this new, I think Flip has to take the opportunities that present to learn about his team.

Posted by: ts35 | November 18, 2010 1:10 PM | Report abuse

PART 2

Im actually kinda glad that Gil lost his stroke last game because he's the type of guy that will say that he's going to drive more next game and stop settling. You cant complete judge the guys too bad last game because it was the 2nd night of a back to back and Boston's defense was crazy smothering. No one else can do that. Then without Wall the last 2 games we dont get any easy or fastbreak baskets. We need him for that. Him in the full court and Gil in the halfcourt is the perfect mix and Dray will really benefit. Some say Gil has lost alot and he's clearly lost some athletic ability but just like Dray he will look alot better each game. He really hasnt played much ball in the last 4 years. He's going to look better every single game, espically with Wall making it easier for him.

All Im saying is that fans should stop saying that we suck, are a 20 win team, or whatever. Even Miami has looked average. We have alot of new pieces and alot of injuried players. The next game will be as complete as weve been all year. That game or the next is when you should really start to judge us and I think we will start looking alot better. A lineup of Wall, Gil, Al, Dray, & Javelle is very solid and then we come off the bench with Kirk, a hot NY, Yi, and HA. I like that mix. We will matchup way better with teams from here on out

Posted by: dlts2041 | November 18, 2010 1:11 PM | Report abuse

Well, the next 3 games are all winnable, even the 4th one, Atlanta, they played them strong last time until late. The question is the health of the team, Wall, Yi, and Blatche are all hobbling.

Posted by: sagaliba | November 18, 2010 1:29 PM | Report abuse

The Celtics big men were beating the Wizards big men up and down the court. They were brutalizing them inside and outhustling them outside. And everything in between.

I seriously doubt that using Booker for Blatche or this mix for that was going to stop them. This was the Celtics man-to-man beating lesser players.

No coaching can overcome that.

Some of this "blame the sub patterns" or "Saunders' subbing needs changing" commentary is fair. But it doesn't apply for what happened last night.

Posted by: SteveMG | November 18, 2010 1:46 PM | Report abuse

Anyone who blames this loss on coaching is an A-grade idiot.

Posted by: kalo_rama | November 18, 2010 12:12 PM

What a high polluting sanctimonious statement.

Clearly, the Boston Celtics at their level of play was clearly expected to win this game.

So to come out and say after they actually did it in fine fashion that you can't blame the loss on coaching is well, sanctimonious.

The coaching isn't blameless in this loss by any stretch at all. A coach can coach well and loose. He can coach well and win. He can coach bad and win and he can coach bad and loose.

So your statement is all high polluting and it shows your bias for coaches, for your statement would have meant more if you had said you can't blame the coach nor THE PLAYERS EITHER.

Your statement seems to indicate that Saunders did well as he could coaching so he has no blame in this loss.

Poppycock.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | November 18, 2010 1:46 PM | Report abuse

"What a high polluting sanctimonious statement."

Larry, Larry. Larry. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your whole thing is some kind of shtick, but I really don't think you're that sharp.

Posted by: kalo_rama | November 18, 2010 1:56 PM | Report abuse

@Larry

Two flaws in your thinking. First, they could have played five bigs last night and they still would not have been able to handle someone of Shaq's size on the low box. It was physics more than effort or lineup. Second, assuming you put your third big in the game, he now has the responsibility of covering Paul Pierce. Meaning he has to chase Pierce around the floor, off of screens, etc. Otherwise Pierce gets his choice of open looks. We saw what he could do with the open looks he got last night.

I actually think last night was Flip's most effective substitution pattern for McGee that I've seen. McGee played flat out the entire time he was on floor, and the stretches where he sat gave him ample time to catch his breath. Not sure where he is vis a vis his conditioning and asthma, but not knowing that, it seemed like the rotation kept him fresh the entire game.

Posted by: ts35 | November 18, 2010 1:01 PM

Your points are valid, but they donot undercut my point about a Big Man game.

My overall and consistent point ts35 reference the Big Man game is that Flip is not doing all that he can and isn't even making an effort to strengthen the in game Big Man play with the players that we have.

I am not saying that we could have won the game last night with our Bigs, only that our Big Man game was exploited by design, and nor am I saying have an loosing matchup just for the sake of going big. I would much rather see Thornton, Howard when healthy, or even Young on Pierce.

My whole point is that our Big Man Game should be nowhere as weak as it currently is. And my whole reasoning behind that is based on the fact that Flip should have a more focused and cohesive gametime strategy for the Bigs. We can be stronger on the inside just with the Bigs that we do have.

We have to play with the grass on this side of the fence.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | November 18, 2010 2:09 PM | Report abuse

@spades72; good observation/post. This is what I was talking about a thread or two back when I was talking about on the ball pressure.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | November 18, 2010 2:12 PM | Report abuse

Some of this "blame the sub patterns" or "Saunders' subbing needs changing" commentary is fair. But it doesn't apply for what happened last night. Posted by: SteveMG

I doubt anyone here understands the game and the teams well enough to offer an informed opinion about the sub patterns.

Posted by: djnnnou | November 18, 2010 2:14 PM | Report abuse

Larry, Larry. Larry. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your whole thing is some kind of shtick, but I really don't think you're that sharp.

Posted by: kalo_rama | November 18, 2010 1:56 PM

Just as I was thinking Larryisshaunlivingstonsbasement&hisshtick had reached unprecedented heights in rhetorical splendor, Kalo blows my mind in calling into question something that had never before occured to me: could he actually be a bona fide moron?

Posted by: prescrunk | November 18, 2010 2:22 PM | Report abuse

I doubt anyone here understands the game and the teams well enough to offer an informed opinion about the sub patterns

Maybe, maybe not. But's a fair question to throw out there. Matchups, et cetera. After all, it's a commentary section where we shoot the bull.

My only point was that that wasn't the problem last night. Or for most nights.

They were just physically overwhelmed. Period.

As they have been for 3+ years.

Posted by: SteveMG | November 18, 2010 2:25 PM | Report abuse

"I doubt anyone here understands the game and the teams well enough to offer an informed opinion about the sub patterns.
Posted by: djnnnou"

The real barrier is our limited store of information about why the coach is making a given substitution. That doesn't permit a fan much in the way of informed judgment. Say for instance that somebody here is complaining about Arenas not starting, and attributing that to coaching preference. Is that really the reason, or are there other factors we're not aware of? The press asks the coach, who makes some vague reference to Gilbert's health, but what does that mean specifically? All we know is what we read and what we see on TV. A player may not want the coach providing more details about his health. But as fans, frustrated with the losing, we tend to go with the superficial.

A lot of what's written here is more about fan psychology than anything else. It's a tough job, being a fan of a losing team.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 18, 2010 2:26 PM | Report abuse

"What a high polluting sanctimonious statement."

I think you meant 'high-falutin', a term I haven't heard since I left Kansas. They're still struggling with that Darwin fella.

Anyway, from Wiktionary:
"In his book, The Adventure of English, Melvyn Bragg records that in a nascent America, when the well-to-do travelled by steamboat, said passengers were referred to as highfalutin due to the high fluted funnels on the boats."

Posted by: Samson151 | November 18, 2010 2:32 PM | Report abuse

A lot of what's written here is more about fan psychology than anything else. It's a tough job, being a fan of a losing team.

Yeah, but I think it's a fair question or issue to raise as to whether Saunders is getting the max out of this team.

OTOH, I think it's unfair - absurd really - to argue that his coaching is why this team is where it's at.

I'm guessing, 10% coaching, 90% players/talent.

Probably more like 5/95.

Posted by: SteveMG | November 18, 2010 2:33 PM | Report abuse

EG must take money from the french man to draft him at 17, other wise he would have been avaliable at the last 1st round spot.
What is the quality on this young fat man? no speed, no talent ,no conditioning. What did they see on him to pick him at 17? He is not NBA material by any standard.
Shame on you EG

Posted by: gtefferra | November 18, 2010 2:43 PM | Report abuse

My only point was that that wasn't the problem last night. Or for most nights.

I agree with you. Just pointing out that most of the talk of sub patterns is indeed bull.

Posted by: djnnnou | November 18, 2010 2:44 PM | Report abuse

you folks don't know basketball. part of the Celtics well oiled machine was a function of effort. the Wiz don't put forth effort on the defensive end. there were a few picks and cuts where teh Wiz defender always chose the easy reaction like switching versus fighting around the pick or denying the cut and pick.

The wiz don't even look like pro team compared to the Celtics. The Celtics executed sets. What did the Wiz do? they looked lost and out of position.

Lastly, Andray Blatche is a bum. he's gifted but a waste of athletic skills. he's not out of shape or lost his agility. he is the same 6-11 bum that only shoots 17-foot fadeaways and reverse layups. NBA bigs know he doesn't like being physical and he stays out the paint. Only when Flip ran back picks for him to get open flashing in the lane did he ever go in the paint? you can't when with your primary inside presence being soft and a jump shooter.

Posted by: simplewords999 | November 18, 2010 2:53 PM | Report abuse

My only point was that that wasn't the problem last night. Or for most nights.

They were just physically overwhelmed. Period.

As they have been for 3+ years.

Posted by: SteveMG | November 18, 2010 2:25 PM | Report abuse

I have to agree with you on this and I am not sure if this is because the team back in the Pollin days were too cheap to hire a trainer that would beef up our players or is it just the players. McGee look a little bigger after 3 years. It sad to see him wait outside of the paint then wait for someone to shoot then run around opponents hoping to beat them to the ball instead of physically boxing them out. I am not knocking on McGee, it just his physical is limiting him. Same for Blacthe, tho he just lazy.

By the way (off the point) is Lindsay Czarniak single. She's kinda cute.

Posted by: demonj21 | November 18, 2010 2:54 PM | Report abuse

Last night was all about talent and coaching two venues where this team is sorely lacking sans Wall and Arenas, last year's wholesale demolition of that current squad was ill timed and stupid and doomed this years franchise to a third consecutive year of fifty plus loses.The Wizards are not going anywhere until they get rid of the coach and the GM.

Posted by: dargregmag | November 18, 2010 3:20 PM | Report abuse

I'm sure coaching played a small part in the loss to boston but don't you think there are huge holes in the wizards game that played a role in the loss. Points in the Paint, Getting to the free throw line, Rebounding. Also the Boston Celtics is a more talented team with two and a half men deep at every position when healthy. It would be different if you say "Oh the lakers beat the Celtics because they were outcoached"
This argument has validity because the cumulative talent and experience level was close on both teams. However, if you say Wiz lost to the celtics because flip is a bad coach and the celtics were a beatable team (The starting lineup has over 30 years of all star appearances combined).

Posted by: jefferu | November 18, 2010 3:34 PM | Report abuse

It's a tough job, being a fan of a losing team.

Posted by: Samson151 | November 18, 2010 2:26 PM

And the pay ain't all that great either!

Posted by: gmac78 | November 18, 2010 3:38 PM | Report abuse

When Uncle Ted,the owner in waiting, approved Ernie purging the Wizards' roster last winter, anybody with any basketball sense could see that he had embarked on a rebuilding process. Clearly we are talking about a 2-5 year process, and a lot depends on luck in the draft, player development and injuries.

Last night they got a good old fashioned ass whopping from a group of veterans that are determined to go to the finals. Those guys are as healthy as a group as they've been in years and they're piling up wins as fast as they can while healthy. They know the Heat will get it together and they're prepping to make sure that they face every team they can with a home court advantage.

The Wiz are still in the first 10 games of a long rebuilding process and the Celt's are trying to add one more title before they start their farewell tours. Where are most of the guy's on that Celtics roster going to be in two to three years when the J Wall and company should be coming into their own?

It's early in the process but I like the Booker trade. Check the papers folks Booker was already picked at 25 when the Wiz traded up to get him. And according to many Seraphin was going to go higher then 17 til he tweeked the knee. Coming on here and and stating that they both would have been available in the second round is just plain silly.

Also stating that the Wiz ended up getting nothing for the pick they sent to the T-Wolves isn't looking at the Cap. By renouncing Miller, and Foye, the Wiz created the cap space that allowed them to take on Hinrich's contract from Chicago. Chicago was so desperate to clear cap space they sent along the 17th pick which the Wiz used to get Seraphin.

In effect Ernie traded Miller and Foye for Hinrich and Seraphin. Some where down the line we should be comparing Ricky Rubio's career to Seraphin's in deciding how Ernie made out with that 5th pick that he dealt.

Time will tell, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Wiz flip Hinrich in another deal to. Some thing Flip has a love affair with Hinrich, think the Wiz could be showcasing the vet? If they mange to get another usable peice for the future that deal could end up looking even better.

I'd be the first to say that N'Diaye and Seraphin could probably use some D League playing time. In fact I said it way back in camp. I also really thought this team needed a veteran center to help bridge the gap til some of these young guys are ready.

McGee is progressing and competing, sure he needs to learn to either get a very good shot on the offensive rebound, or reset. But I'd rather see that mistake instead of not getting the rebound at all. I was glad to see him competing with Shaq and having the confidence in himself to go right at him. Next time lets hope he learns to be a little smarter.

Nick Young actually seems to be stringing together some decent games. Slowly but suely he seems to be losing that bad habit of shooting every shot as a fade away.
Baby steps...
GM

Posted by: flohrtv | November 18, 2010 3:53 PM | Report abuse

If Flip bears no responsibility for last night's game, then he gets no credit for beating Raptors either?

Posted by: divi3 | November 18, 2010 4:15 PM | Report abuse

This argument has validity because the cumulative talent and experience level was close on both teams. However, if you say Wiz lost to the celtics because flip is a bad coach and the celtics were a beatable team (The starting lineup has over 30 years of all star appearances combined).

Posted by: jefferu | November 18, 2010 3:34 PM | Report abuse

which two teams are "close" in talent and experience levels? The wiz being the NBAs 3rd youngest team and the Celts having to be in the top 3 oldest teams.
I guess i don't understand this one could you clarify.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | November 18, 2010 4:32 PM | Report abuse

Time will tell, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Wiz flip Hinrich in another deal to. Some thing Flip has a love affair with Hinrich, think the Wiz could be showcasing the vet? If they mange to get another usable peice for the future that deal could end up looking even better.
Posted by: flohrtv

Flip does seem to trust KH more than his other guards, but it's really Ernie who has the 'love affair' with Hinrich. When they brought him in, EG admitted that he had wanted to draft him when he was in Milwaukee and had made attempts to acquire him in the past. Given the reasons they named for bringing him in -- toughness, defense, and mainly to help Wall's transition to the NBA -- it's unlikely they are showcasing him to move this year. Next year may be a different story.

Also stating that the Wiz ended up getting nothing for the pick they sent to the T-Wolves isn't looking at the Cap. By renouncing Miller, and Foye, the Wiz created the cap space that allowed them to take on Hinrich's contract from Chicago. Chicago was so desperate to clear cap space they sent along the 17th pick which the Wiz used to get Seraphin.

Considering other teams were able to just purchase picks (higher picks in fact) without taking on a largish salary, I don't know if clearing cap space qualifies as a precursor to acquiring another pick. Some would argue that clearing the cap space to take on KH was also not a positive. Plus, I think the trades of AJ, BTH and Caron, in addition to the subsequent buyout of Z created enough space to bring in Hinrich. I'm generally fine with the move, but it's not as clear cut as you're making it.

Posted by: ts35 | November 18, 2010 5:04 PM | Report abuse

If Flip bears no responsibility for last night's game, then he gets no credit for beating Raptors either?

Posted by: divi3

He gets credit and blame for both. But it's tough to assign specific value to how much he deserves for either. My complaint with some folks on these boards is that if they lose, Flip takes total blame, if they win, it's the players who succeeded.

For example, imo, NY has been playing better lately. And has been getting his shots within the offense. Certainly Nick's shooting touch is all to his credit, but how much credit goes to Flip for instigating the process of Nick adding more catch-and-shoot off of screens to his game? Last night, at some point AB stopped trying to go inside. How much of that was AB, how much was Flip not seeing him have success inside and going away from it? If the players stopped looking for AB inside, is that just on the players, did Flip fail to coach them to try to work it inside, or did he tell them to do it and they didn't execute?

As I think Samson and djnnnou have alluded to, it's difficult to assess blame to coaching because we don't know what he's coaching them to do, or the other factors that are involved.

Posted by: ts35 | November 18, 2010 5:16 PM | Report abuse

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