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Posted at 8:04 AM ET, 12/ 6/2010

Wizards' road woes continue

By Michael Lee
Morning brew

A lot has changed for the Wizards since April 9. They've added the No. 1 overall pick, brought back Gilbert Arenas, acquired Kirk Hinrich and Yi Jianlian and added some other rookies and free agents. But those additions have not helped the Wizards record a win on the road just yet.

The Wizards continue to add to their franchise record for consecutive road losses to start the season. That number is now at 10, after opening their first West Coast trip of the season with a 125-108 loss in Phoenix on Sunday at US Airways Center. But they have now lost 11 consecutive road games overall -- dating back to an impressive 106-96 road win in Boston on April 9 -- with their previous 10 coming against Eastern Conference opponents.

Coach Flip Saunders said the Wizards will have to avoid the mental breakdowns that have contributed to their road struggles. They were able to hang close with the Suns through the first half, but couldn't maintain their focus for the entire game. "When things don't go right as a team, we get down on ourselves and let one mistake compound onto another and that's when teams go on an 6, or 8-0 run that turns a 3-point game and make it 11 or an 8-point game and make it 16," Saunders said. "And then you're mentality, how you play is totally different."

With each defeat, the Wizards move closer to matching the franchise record of 15 road losses in a row, which occurred from Dec. 23, 1999 to Feb. 20, 2000 -- before any member of this current roster entered the NBA. The Wizards (6-13) will practice this afternoon in Los Angeles, as they get ready for the two-time defending champion Lakers on Tuesday at Staples Center. The Lakers will be well rested, taking some time off since snapping their four-game losing streak with a 113-80 win on Friday against the Sacramento Kings.

"Nobody wants to lose," Gilbert Arenas said, "We've just got to put our situation on trying to win. That's all."

FROM THE POST
Here is the game story from today's newspaper and the postgame wrap-up.

AROUND THE WEB
At Bullets Forever, Mike Prada asks: Is the team's ineptness on the road a roster construction issue or a coaching issue?

Truth About It's Kyle Weidie examines the lure of Steve Nash.

By Michael Lee  | December 6, 2010; 8:04 AM ET
Categories:  Morning brew  
Save & Share:  Send E-mail   Facebook   Twitter   Digg   Yahoo Buzz   Del.icio.us   StumbleUpon   Technorati   Google Buzz   Previous: Steve Nash carves up Wizards as they struggle to find some continuity
Next: Wizards react to Steve Nash, 10th road loss in Phoenix

Comments

Flip holds the Bullets/Wiz record for most consecutive losses and is now flirting with most consecutive road losses....given the history of this franchise, that would be quite an accomplishment. Of sorts.

Posted by: divi3 | December 6, 2010 8:29 AM | Report abuse


"If there was any encouraging sign for the Wizards, it was the play of the bench, which scored a combined 60 points."

That's what happens when you put all your scorers on the bench. Flip's "starters" are digging an early hole and the bench is having to pull them out. Gee and Hinrich cannot be on the floor with Wall. Flip is coaching a horrible game right now.

Posted by: and_1 | December 6, 2010 8:47 AM | Report abuse

"I didn't think our inside presence showed any physicality," Saunders said. "We didn't give any resistance."

They don't show inside presence because they're not actually there when the plays occur. It's not a case of our guys getting dunked on, or shoved away from the basket...it's a case of no wizards player being near the rim as an opponent sails in for an easy dunk or layup.

The players are not on the same page yet defensively, hopefully that will improve with time.

Posted by: divi3 | December 6, 2010 9:04 AM | Report abuse

The Wizards continue to add to their franchise record for consecutive road losses to start the season...

...the New York Knicks extended their road winning-streak to seven games

It's amazing how Donnie Walsh can rebuild the Knicks to win right away while Ernie's rebuilding of the Wizards is going to take 4-5 years?

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 6, 2010 9:30 AM | Report abuse

The wizards wake up in the morning from a nightmare that Hakeem Warrick dunked on them in their dreams.

Posted by: jefferu | December 6, 2010 9:31 AM | Report abuse

"With each defeat, the Wizards move closer to matching the franchise record of 15 road losses in a row, which occurred from Dec. 23, 1999 to Feb. 20, 2000"

Thought you all would like to know the NBA records on this score:

Most consecutive road games lost: 43 Sacramento (11/21/90 - 11/22/91)
(37 gms in 1990-91; 6 gms in 1991-92)

Most consecutive road games lost, start of season: 29
Dallas (11/10/92 - 3/13/93)

Most consecutive road games lost, end of season: 37
Sacramento (11/21/90 - 4/19/91)

I didn't even know Flip and Ernie were coaching at all those places...

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 9:37 AM | Report abuse

At the end of the 1st half it was a 3 point game. At the end of the 3rd quarter it was a 17 point game. Two of the team best scorers stayed on the bench for the first 8 minutes of the 3rd quarter. Do I need to say more.

Posted by: spades72 | December 6, 2010 9:39 AM | Report abuse

Hinrich played 11 minutes in the 3rd quarter ( more than anybody else ). He had one missed shot, 2 rebounds and one assist. The team was outscored by 14pts while he was on the floor. I know it wasn't just him but Cartier Martin should have gotten some of those minutes. I think Martin would have been better suited for that style of play.

Posted by: spades72 | December 6, 2010 9:45 AM | Report abuse

I didn't even know Flip and Ernie were coaching at all those places...

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 9:37 AM | Report abuse

Let me get this right what you're saying is Flip sucks but since he's not the worst coach to ever coach in the NBA the Wizards should keep him?

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 6, 2010 9:49 AM | Report abuse

BTW, Phoenix was favored by at least 8 points on all the wagering sites. Portland was favored over Washington by 2-3 points. The Lakers will probably be big favorites over the Wiz by the time the game starts. The fact that LA hasn't been playing well doesn't count much against them; the bookies expect them to get well against Washington. The Lakers are currently 2nd in points scored and 16th in opponents' scoring. In their last visit to Staples, in March, the Lakers went up by 28 and then coasted to a 99-92 win.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 9:52 AM | Report abuse

"Let me get this right what you're saying is Flip sucks but since he's not the worst coach to ever coach in the NBA the Wizards should keep him?Posted by: bulletsfan78"

Nope, just wondering how you're going to manage to blame them for those losses, too...

You'll think of something.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 9:53 AM | Report abuse


"At the end of the 1st half it was a 3 point game. At the end of the 3rd quarter it was a 17 point game. Two of the team best scorers stayed on the bench for the first 8 minutes of the 3rd quarter. Do I need to say more."

Nope. Flip, as usual, just sat there and watched the game slip away. Makes no sense to start each half with only one true scorer (Blatche) on the floor. Seems like a ham-handed approach to getting Blatche more touches (if that is what Flip is trying to do) and sealed their fate against a high-scoring team like Phoenix.

Posted by: and_1 | December 6, 2010 9:54 AM | Report abuse

Nope, just wondering how you're going to manage to blame them for those losses, too...

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 9:53 AM | Report abuse

That would be as stupid as saying Flip had nothing to do with the Wizard losses and just blaming the players.

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 6, 2010 10:07 AM | Report abuse

Coach Flip Saunders said the Wizards will have to avoid the mental breakdowns that have contributed to their road struggles.

Has this guy ever said "I" didn't do a good job?

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 6, 2010 10:09 AM | Report abuse

Has this guy ever said "I" didn't do a good job?


Nope. It's always Young, Blatche or Arenas...or whoever is currently residing in Flip's doghouse.

Posted by: musicmanjr | December 6, 2010 10:18 AM | Report abuse

I don't think a coaching change in the MIDDLE of the season is such a good idea. Its too hard to scrap the playbook and learn a whole new system on the fly. Maybe at the end of the season something should happen.

Posted by: jefferu | December 6, 2010 10:21 AM | Report abuse

It's amazing how Donnie Walsh can rebuild the Knicks to win right away while Ernie's rebuilding of the Wizards is going to take 4-5 years?

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 6, 2010 9:30 AM | Report abuse

Right away? They've been "rebuilding" for years dumping salary and draft picks. Your post about them drafting Chandler and Gallinari and Fields and signing Amare and Felton...didn't happen overnight.

They've been doing it since 2008...that's right away?

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 6, 2010 10:21 AM | Report abuse

Nope. Flip, as usual, just sat there and watched the game slip away. Makes no sense to start each half with only one true scorer (Blatche) on the floor. Seems like a ham-handed approach to getting Blatche more touches (if that is what Flip is trying to do) and sealed their fate against a high-scoring team like Phoenix.

I think getting AB more touches is exactly what Flip is trying to do. There have been a few games where Blatche scores 10-12pts in the 1st Quarter, last night was no exception.

Flip has won too many games in the nba to really believe the lineups he went with last night gave us best chance to win. As he said, wins and losses don't matter

Posted by: divi3 | December 6, 2010 10:25 AM | Report abuse

I don't know why anybody is surprised at these loses you have a GM who fires the best coach the franchise has had in ten years then he compounds that stupidity by hiring a coach(Tapscott) with no NBA experience and too further that insult of this team's fan base he names that same coach head of this team's scouting dept. Flip Saunders coaching is being exposed every night as a know nothing,slow to make in game adjustments, horrible subsitution patterns, and absolutely no accountability where defensive responsibility is concerned. Ted Leonsis changed this cities hockey franchise with clever personel moves and smart drafting i hope he wakes up and smell's the odor that is permiating this team's front office and coaching staff and makes a change.

Posted by: dargregmag | December 6, 2010 10:30 AM | Report abuse

Avoid mental breakdowns that contributes to road struggles.

Well, I guess if that were really true, did he by chance indicate what is causing those mental breakdowns and if anything can and will be done about it.

Whom is supposed to correct that deficiency?

Oh! Oh! Oh! I know. The Players. And irrespective to any combination of them that are on the floor at time. It's the players, they can't concentrate long enough to keep their minds in the game long enough without having a mental collapse.

Ah yes, I got that one right, didn't I 151, Kalo, and SDMDSTU.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | December 6, 2010 10:36 AM | Report abuse

Note to divi3: Flip won in Minn. because he had Kevin Garnett,the best player the Timberwolves ever had, he won in Det.because he inherited a playoff tested lineup(he managed to screw that up!)look player's know when a coach has a clue and when doesn't they tune him out.

Posted by: dargregmag | December 6, 2010 10:37 AM | Report abuse

look player's know when a coach has a clue and when doesn't they tune him out.

Posted by: dargregmag | December 6, 2010 10:37 AM | Report abuse

Cowboys Wade Phillips = Wizards Flip

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 6, 2010 10:42 AM | Report abuse


"Flip has won too many games in the nba to really believe the lineups he went with last night gave us best chance to win. As he said, wins and losses don't matter"

Let's see what he's saying when he can't get another job as a head coach. Unless, these lineups are being dictated by Grunfeld, Flop doesn't have a leg to stand on in terms of strategy and rotations.

Posted by: and_1 | December 6, 2010 10:44 AM | Report abuse

"That would be as stupid as saying Flip had nothing to do with the Wizard losses and just blaming the players.Posted by: bulletsfan78"

Not that anybody said that, of course. But don't let that stop you.

Fact is, fixing blame at this point is fruitless. Everybody knew going into the season that the Wiz would lose a lot of games. One commentator picked them as the league's very worst team. Can't recall anyone who thought they'd make the playoffs (except here, of course, but this is a fan site.) Most of the posters who want Ernie fired or Flip replaced are the same folks who felt that way last season, with a substantially different roster. The suggestions that are made here -- mostly adjustments to the starting lineup, or sit this player and play that one -- are bandaids at best. Play Nick and sit Cartier, play Cartier and sit Alonzo -- these might make a difference for a game or two, but alter the team's prospects?

Remember last season? (I know that was a long time ago...)The Wiz went on something of a run with Blatche putting up good numbers. Flip was running 60% of the plays through Andray. Just when some folks here were declaring victory, the team started losing. A number of factors: injuries, opponent's making adjustments, etc. But that's never good enough for some fans. They've got to blame somebody. It's stupid, sure, but it's also basic psychology.

Hopefully, none of the Wiz players read this stuff. Can you imagine a young player trying to take seriously the advice that gets handed out around here? Might as well ask the guy on the next bar stool how to manage your 401K.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 10:51 AM | Report abuse

They've been doing it since 2008...that's right away?

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 6, 2010 10:21 AM | Report abuse

Moves made last year...

Fields 39th pick
Signed Felton
Traded for Amare

Chandler 07
Gallinari 08

Lets see Ernie has some players on the roster drafted from a few years ago but instead of going out and getting a stud who can turn a team around he gets Yi, Kirk, Armstrong, Gee and Martin.

Give Ernie a rasie?

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 6, 2010 10:52 AM | Report abuse

Moves made last year...

Fields 39th pick
Signed Felton
Traded for Amare

Chandler 07
Gallinari 08

Lets see Ernie has some players on the roster drafted from a few years ago but instead of going out and getting a stud who can turn a team around he gets Yi, Kirk, Armstrong, Gee and Martin.

Give Ernie a rasie?

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 6, 2010 10:52 AM | Report abuse

When your OWNER says we will NOT be signing any big money FA's...that's what it means.

So your issue shouldn't be with Ernie if that's your complaint this week.

Take it up with the man that writes the checks.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 6, 2010 11:01 AM | Report abuse

Kirk and Gee with -20 and -18 PER, respectively. JMac has -15

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 6, 2010 11:01 AM | Report abuse

i agree start J.Wall Gil thorton Blatche and Mcgee that way Wall and Gil get chemistry Wall already has chemistry with blatche and mcgee the d will get better once blatche get down 5 to 10 pounds to get to 255 or 250 and gets his explosiveness back he's getting closehaving gil out there gives wall room and makes that defender honor gil causes of who he is but it also gives the space for wall to run the pick and roll for a easy bucket for blatche via jumper or roll to the basket or pick and dunk with mcgee lol its getting there then in the fourth you put out wall gil young blatche and mcgee or yi depending on the match ups but most likely mcgee and give cartier more time can shoot big 6"7 play him

Posted by: davisjustin1428 | December 6, 2010 11:06 AM | Report abuse


"The suggestions that are made here -- mostly adjustments to the starting lineup, or sit this player and play that one -- are bandaids at best. Play Nick and sit Cartier, play Cartier and sit Alonzo -- these might make a difference for a game or two, but alter the team's prospects?"

Just as there is no evidence to show that altering lineups would change the team's propsects, there is no evidence to support your assertion that changes might make a difference for only a game or two.

It makes no sense, for example, to bring all but one of your scorers off the bench. Put a little more scoring in the starting unit and it might give a struggling team a better chance of being competitive. I understand sticking with what works, but Flip's current strategy isn't working. Give it more time?

Posted by: and_1 | December 6, 2010 11:11 AM | Report abuse

When your OWNER says we will NOT be signing any big money FA's...that's what it means.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 6, 2010 11:01 AM | Report abuse

Ernie has the best job in the NBA all he does is what his owners (Abe and now Ted) tell him and he doesn't have to worry if the team keeps losing.

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 6, 2010 11:15 AM | Report abuse

Flip's not going to start Gil. Arenas is too aggressive to have on the floor with Wall, and I dont think Gil is particularly impressed with Wall's game so far. It probably does make more sense to play Wall with Mr.Invisible Hinrich if the goal is to let Wall find his way in the league.

Posted by: divi3 | December 6, 2010 11:15 AM | Report abuse

But I dont see where it helps Wall's development for him to be stuck on the floor with only 1 guy who can legitimately score (AB).

Posted by: divi3 | December 6, 2010 11:20 AM | Report abuse

Ernie has the best job in the NBA all he does is what his owners (Abe and now Ted) tell him and he doesn't have to worry if the team keeps losing.

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 6, 2010 11:15 AM | Report abuse

Well when your owner wants to rebuilding on youth. It is what it is. Don't let the facts get in the way of your complaining.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 6, 2010 11:24 AM | Report abuse

Well when your owner wants to rebuilding on youth. It is what it is. Don't let the facts get in the way of your complaining.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 6, 2010 11:24 AM | Report abuse

The problem is Ernie can't draft...

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 6, 2010 11:35 AM | Report abuse

The coach blames the players, the GM blames the owner on which players are on the roster...sounds like DC to me...

Pass the buck instead of the buck stops here

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 6, 2010 11:38 AM | Report abuse

The problem is Ernie can't draft...

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 6, 2010 11:35 AM | Report abuse

This conversation again. Like I always say...give me 5 people who draft better to compare and contrast with.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 6, 2010 11:39 AM | Report abuse

Can someone please explain how come the Wizards suck considering they have one of the best GM's (who put the roster together)and coaches in the NBA?

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 6, 2010 11:56 AM | Report abuse

Don't know why Thornton only played 7 minutes, even less than Gee, is he healthy? The problem with Gee is that he does not have any jump shot to speak of. Yi can hit jump shot when he is facing the basket, but whenever he tries his post move, he either got the ball knocked out of his hands, or just missed.

Of course, the problem last night is that Nash totally abused our guards. Neither Wall nor Hinrich can keep in front of him, and allowed him to penetrate and drew big men over and then just passed to his own big man for a dunk.

Posted by: sagaliba | December 6, 2010 12:00 PM | Report abuse

"Its too hard to scrap the playbook and learn a whole new system on the fly..."

what playbook? they have had the entire offseason, training camp to learn the system...heck flip even put the playbook on an ipod for each player.

how bad does it have to get for ted to make the change?

Posted by: spoooooooon | December 6, 2010 12:11 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: sagaliba | December 6, 2010 12:00 PM | Report abuse

i dunno bout Al, maybe he needs to see a doctor about his chronic soreness and general ability to stay healthy. I like Al when he's bringin it, but he's waaaaaaaaaaaaaay streakier than NY and will disappear in a game quicker than AB.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 6, 2010 12:15 PM | Report abuse

Can someone please explain how come the Wizards suck considering they have one of the best GM's (who put the roster together)and coaches in the NBA?

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 6, 2010 11:56 AM | Report abuse

Because they don't have a superstar. Real simple.

Winning teams have one. Besides the Pistons that won the championship.

It's very simple.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 6, 2010 12:15 PM | Report abuse

As the saying goes, "The fish rots from the head". Ted, should have cleaned-house upon his arrival and had Ernie Grunfeld's head on-display outside of the Verizon Center to show the fans that he means business. The team has been bottom-feeders defensively for years through several coaching changes and Grunfeld gets to kick-back to see if his latest rebuild project will get off the ground. Ernie and Flip both need to be replaced, neither can be trusted to build-up a young team.

Posted by: FireGrunfeld | December 6, 2010 12:17 PM | Report abuse

"That would be as stupid as saying Flip had nothing to do with the Wizard losses and just blaming the players."

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 6, 2010 10:07 AM

That would be a stupid thing to say. Which might explain why no one (other than you, of course) has actually said it.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 6, 2010 12:19 PM | Report abuse

"Well when your owner wants to rebuilding on youth. It is what it is. Don't let the facts get in the way of your complaining."

Posted by: SDMDTSU | December 6, 2010 11:24 AM

I'm pretty sure that falls under the heading of "unnecessary advice."

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 6, 2010 12:21 PM | Report abuse

"Kirk and Gee with -20 and -18 PER, respectively. JMac has -15"

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 6, 2010 11:01 AM

Aaaaaand . . . what's your point? They lost by 17 (and it wasn't really that close). The only players who had pluses were Thornton and Martin, who played a combined 10 minutes and took 3 shots (all by Thornton) making 2. The entire team was one big, freakin' minus.

(Oh, and for the record, "+/-" and "PER" are two completely different things.)

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 6, 2010 12:29 PM | Report abuse

That would be a stupid thing to say. Which might explain why no one (other than you, of course) has actually said it.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 6, 2010 12:19 PM | Report abuse

No, you always say it's the players fault.

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 6, 2010 12:32 PM | Report abuse

"As the saying goes, "The fish rots from the head".


Posted by: FireGrunfeld | December 6, 2010 12:17 PM

Actually, as a general rule, dead animals tend to rot from the guts out.

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 6, 2010 12:35 PM | Report abuse

I don't think a coaching change in the MIDDLE of the season is such a good idea. Its too hard to scrap the playbook and learn a whole new system on the fly. Maybe at the end of the season something should happen.

Posted by: jefferu | December 6, 2010 10:21 AM

First off, it is not the MIDDLE of the season. The season hasn't hit the quarter mark yet. Secondly, scrapping this playbook and learning something new would be worse. That is a big assumption.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | December 6, 2010 12:35 PM | Report abuse

"Just as there is no evidence to show that altering lineups would change the team's propsects, there is no evidence to support your assertion that changes might make a difference for only a game or two." posted by and_1"

Note that I didn't say altering lineups doesn't change the team's prospects. Nor did I say that 'changes' in general 'might make a difference for only a game or two.'

What I said was:
"The suggestions that are made here -- mostly adjustments to the starting lineup, or sit this player and play that one -- are bandaids at best. Play Nick and sit Cartier, play Cartier and sit Alonzo -- these might make a difference for a game or two, but alter the team's prospects?"

1. The suggestions made here are mostly bandaids -- efforts to patch holes in the existing roster or rotation. They don't alter the basic makeup of the team.

2. Altering the minutes given to a few players at the SF position -- one of whom is a natural SG, the other two marginal NBA players -- is not likely to alter the team's prospects. Certainly not the way t a rotation involving a healthy Josh Howard and Al Thornton would, for example.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 12:37 PM | Report abuse

"No, you always say it's the players fault."

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | December 6, 2010 12:32 PM

No, I always say it's not all or onlythe coach's fault. (A not very fine distinction, really.) I've never said the coach bears no responsibility.

(See SDMDTSU? I told you that was unnecessary advice.)

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 6, 2010 12:39 PM | Report abuse

why are the Knicks in this conversation?

so what they've won a few games, they are still a work in progress like the Wizards

Posted by: DCfan8397 | December 6, 2010 12:43 PM | Report abuse

"Can someone please explain how come the Wizards suck considering they have one of the best GM's (who put the roster together)and coaches in the NBA?Posted by: bulletsfan78"

Who said they had one of the best coaches and one of the best GM's in the NBA? Melodious_Thunk? What they have is some good coaches and a decent GM. Guys who have succeeded elsewhere, suggesting that they know at least something about what they're doing. Not as much as you and I, of course, but then, we've got big-screen TV.

So far, that hasn't been good enough to produce a winning team. But don't forget, the Knicks, current fan darling, won 29 games last season, 32 the year before -- both under the direction of Mike D'Antoni. The big difference this year? Two free agents, a promising rookie, and some improvement from past top draft choices. Especially those two FAs.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 12:49 PM | Report abuse

BTW, the Knicks drafted Jordan Hill in 2009, now with the Rockets. They traded away their top pick in 2010.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 12:57 PM | Report abuse

When is Howard due back, anyway?

Posted by: PostSubscriber | December 6, 2010 1:01 PM | Report abuse

Will Howard make a difference now with Flips system?? I doubt it.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | December 6, 2010 1:05 PM | Report abuse


"The suggestions made here are mostly bandaids -- efforts to patch holes in the existing roster or rotation. They don't alter the basic makeup of the team."

Where is this phantom argument about altering the "basic makeup of the team" coming from? My argument is with your "game or two" assertion. We don't know that. BTW, patching holes is part of the coach's job description.

"Altering the minutes given to a few players at the SF position -- one of whom is a natural SG, the other two marginal NBA players -- is not likely to alter the team's prospects."

You might be right, but again, we don't know that. And we certainly don't know that if it did alter the team's prospects, it would only be for a "game or two", as you stated earlier. FYI, that "natural SG" played small forward and did just fine.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to be implying that there's little (or nothing?) Flip can do with the current roster to make the team more competitive. Is that your position?

Posted by: and_1 | December 6, 2010 1:06 PM | Report abuse

NOTE TO JEFFERU; WHAT PLAYBOOK(LMAO!!!)

Posted by: dargregmag | December 6, 2010 1:09 PM | Report abuse

Maybe if Flip brings guns to the locker room Ernie will fire him; having watched all of these (disasterous) road games this season, I'd have to say that the Pheonix game was winnable - with the right coaching and proper player rotation. Flip quit once the Wizards were down by less than 10 points in the 3rd. Wizards need a coach who is confident in his players, and likewise, the Wizards players need to be confident in their coach. Flip's apparently got these guys believing they've got no chance. That would tick me off, (just because you don't believe in you, doesn't mean I don't believe in me). C'mon, Eddie Jordan went 1 - 10, but was competitive in most of the losses. (not to mention the fact that he had taken the Wizards to the playoffs for, what 3 straight seasons?) Flip's squad is getting flat out embarrassed on the road, and he's being out coached by newbies and nobodies. It's time to end this sham, and get this guy on a bus out of town.

Posted by: guisher | December 6, 2010 1:22 PM | Report abuse

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to be implying that there's little (or nothing?) Flip can do with the current roster to make the team more competitive. Is that your position?

Posted by: and_1 | December 6, 2010 1:06 PM

Very good and an exceptionally astute question. I am very curious to see his answer.

LarryInClintonMD.

Posted by: LarryInClintonMD | December 6, 2010 1:22 PM | Report abuse

The thing is that we just dont have enough play makers on this team John Wall and Arenas being the only two, possibly Dray. John Wall is still in the learning process but i guarantee by next season he will have Flips offense downpacked, all we need is go to shooter and for Dray to actually play like a "BIG" man and not some soft 6'11 guard

Posted by: hawksbest08 | December 6, 2010 2:02 PM | Report abuse

FIRE FLIP. this team wont go anywhere or progress enough with flip saunders. his rotations are horrible. arenas benched? wat a joke. hinrich playing almost 40 mins a night? wata joke. yi playing more mins than mcgee now? joke. gee starting over thortan? joke. flip is horrible. he needs to be fired asap. how are areneas and wall ever gonna learn to play together with hinrich starting over gil? flip is flat out horrible.

Posted by: skinsfan09 | December 6, 2010 2:15 PM | Report abuse

"Kirk and Gee with -20 and -18 PER, respectively. JMac has -15"

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 6, 2010 11:01 AM

Aaaaaand . . . what's your point? They lost by 17 (and it wasn't really that close). The only players who had pluses were Thornton and Martin, who played a combined 10 minutes and took 3 shots (all by Thornton) making 2. The entire team was one big, freakin' minus.

(Oh, and for the record, "+/-" and "PER" are two completely different things.)

Posted by: kalo_rama | December 6, 2010 12:29 PM | Report abuse

My mistake. But the point is that those guys didn't play very well. There were guys who did play well, even with a negative +/- ,it just wasn't any of those guys. They looked bad in the game and their #s looked bad on paper. We need to put scorers in the lineup. everyone's defense is about the same level of blah, so play the guys who'll actually make their guy work on the other end.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 6, 2010 2:35 PM | Report abuse

We need to put scorers in the lineup. everyone's defense is about the same level of blah

Bingo.

Just last night the Suns scored at about the same rate no matter who we had in....the game was lost when our 3rd quarter lineup was unable to put points on the board. How many sub 20pt quarters have the Wizards have this season? Hopefully Flip is closely tracking which lineups can't put the ball through the hoop.

Posted by: divi3 | December 6, 2010 2:39 PM | Report abuse

"Where is this phantom argument about altering the "basic makeup of the team" coming from? My argument is with your "game or two" assertion. We don't know that. BTW, patching holes is part of the coach's job description." posted by and_1"

OK, I think you misread the original post. Once more, here's what it said:

"The suggestions that are made here -- mostly adjustments to the starting lineup, or sit this player and play that one -- are bandaids at best. Play Nick and sit Cartier, play Cartier and sit Alonzo -- these might make a difference for a game or two, but alter the team's prospects?"

The segment 'Play Nick and sit Cartier, play Cartier and sit Alonzo' is something that might help the team for a game or two, depending on the matchups. But wouldn't alter the team's prospects (in the longer term). Are you saying that in fact it would? I'd be interested in hearing your rationale if that's the case.

Now for the next query: the part about 'altering the basic makeup of the team' is what the proposed changes don't do, and which is what I believe is needed to improve the team's prospects in the longer term.

Hopefully that clarifies it.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 2:43 PM | Report abuse

"You might be right, but again, we don't know that. And we certainly don't know that if it did alter the team's prospects, it would only be for a "game or two", as you stated earlier. FYI, that "natural SG" played small forward and did just fine."

Now I think you're splitting hairs. We don't 'know' that a lineup change won't improve the team's longer-term prospects, in the sense that we 'know' the sun comes up in the East every morning, but we know enough to assert it with some justification. With a team like the Wiz, a rebuilding project, you have to think longer-term. As I noted earlier, the Wiz were almost universally slotted among the NBA's weaker clubs coming into this season (except here, of course), and they've done little to alter that status to date.

Now about Nick doing 'just fine' as a SF -- he did well in some matchups, not so well in others. He matches up better against SGs. The point wasn't whether Nick played well or not. The point was whether giving more minutes at SF to a Nick, a Gee, a Cartier was really going to make much of a difference in the quality of the team's play. You know what I think.

Anyway, that's the best I can do by way of explaining.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 2:53 PM | Report abuse

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to be implying that there's little (or nothing?) Flip can do with the current roster to make the team more competitive. Is that your position?Posted by: and_1"

LOL I should have known there'd be another. Here's what I'm saying: juggling the current lineup won't substantially improve the team's longer-term prospects for success. Neither will starting one player over another; as Flip never tires of saying, he's not concerned with who starts, it's who finishes. Do you think he's lying about that?

In fact, lineup juggling for the sake of change can actually interfere with the team's growth, by preventing a core group from getting used to playing together.

What would improve the team's longer-term prospects? I've said this before: IMO, it's time playing together, it's John Wall gaining game experience, it's the addition of a couple more quality players at key positions (IMO, the low post is one).

So now you have it.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 2:59 PM | Report abuse

You know, we had a helluva year back in '78. This is Bullets Basketball!

Posted by: jwing14 | December 6, 2010 3:00 PM | Report abuse

"Very good and an exceptionally astute question. LarryInClintonMD"

LOL I thought you'd asked it.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 3:00 PM | Report abuse

We need to put scorers in the lineup. everyone's defense is about the same level of blah Posted by: lilhollywood

The Wizards were never going to outscore the Suns.

Just last night the Suns scored at about the same rate no matter who we had in....the game was lost when our 3rd quarter lineup was unable to put points on the board. Posted by: divi3

There's a big difference between 28 pts and 36 pts a quarter. The starting unit played well in the 1st quarter. The game was lost in the 2nd quarter when the Wizards decided that they could trade baskets and didn't need to play defense. The TOs in the third just sealed the deal.

Posted by: djnnnou | December 6, 2010 3:07 PM | Report abuse

LOL I should have known there'd be another. Here's what I'm saying: juggling the current lineup won't substantially improve the team's longer-term prospects for success. Neither will starting one player over another; as Flip never tires of saying, he's not concerned with who starts, it's who finishes. Do you think he's lying about that?

In fact, lineup juggling for the sake of change can actually interfere with the team's growth, by preventing a core group from getting used to playing together.

What would improve the team's longer-term prospects? I've said this before: IMO, it's time playing together, it's John Wall gaining game experience, it's the addition of a couple more quality players at key positions (IMO, the low post is one).

So now you have it.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 2:59 PM | Report abuse
I don't understand how you can say that switching certain players in certain positions can't possibly change this teams short term or long term fortunes. Seriously i think there are players on this team who can contribute more than they're being used. Or even just use them differently. Of course teams have to grow together, but you can't force a lineup if it doesn't work. Right now the wiz ae having some rough 1st and 3rd Quarter starts. Maybe a lil tinkering changes those fortunes. maybe you don't do a demotion or roster upgrade, maybe you make an in game adjustment. Maybe you take out the guy that's ice cold for the past week and let someone else have a crack at it. Nobody on this team is playing perimeter Don a level where it should be keeping solid contributors off the floor. i don't see any Bruce Bowens round here .

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 6, 2010 3:14 PM | Report abuse

The segment 'Play Nick and sit Cartier, play Cartier and sit Alonzo' is something that might help the team for a game or two, depending on the matchups. But wouldn't alter the team's prospects (in the longer term). Are you saying that in fact it would? I'd be interested in hearing your rationale if that's the case.

What if playing Nick 30mins/night resulted in him emerging as a legit, 20pts/night scorer at SG? Or SF? That doesnt change the clubs long term prospects, whether through keeping him in that role or via a trade?

Here's what I'm saying: juggling the current lineup won't substantially improve the team's longer-term prospects for success.

How does playing KH or Gil extensive minutes ahead of younger, cheaper players do anything positive for the team's longer-term prospects?

Posted by: divi3 | December 6, 2010 3:20 PM | Report abuse

The game was lost in the 2nd quarter when the Wizards decided that they could trade baskets and didn't need to play defense. The TOs in the third just sealed the deal.
Posted by: djnnnou

Agreed. Defense continues to be a bigger problem than offense.

Posted by: nmik | December 6, 2010 3:22 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: djnnnou | December 6, 2010 3:07 PM | Report abuse

So if you know you can't defend them, and you don't try to score with them, then what........just start the bus. I hate to live in the past, but Eddie Jordan made no bones about trying to outscore folks, what with his Defensaphobic PF and his offensively challenged center. Somehow that clown managed to lead the wizards to the playoffs time and time again. I'm not saying that playing defense isn't important; but if you can't defend the guys against you, you still know that the point of the game is to have the most points at the end of the game.

I dunno if we're capable of playing shutdown defense on any team this season, especially teams that have been together longer than us. But we've got to find something that works. i think it's about time to expand the mins for Gil and NY. One of those guys has to start. honestly I'd like to see NY take Gee's spot so that gil could come in at either guard spot. BTW Gee shouldn't start ever..........like.....never.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 6, 2010 3:24 PM | Report abuse

There's a big difference between 28 pts and 36 pts a quarter. The starting unit played well in the 1st quarter. The game was lost in the 2nd quarter when the Wizards decided that they could trade baskets and didn't need to play defense. The TOs in the third just sealed the deal.

3pt game at halftime, 17pt deficit to start the 4thQ. Agree to disagree on when the game was lost.

Posted by: divi3 | December 6, 2010 3:25 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: divi3 | December 6, 2010 3:25 PM | Report abuse

we scored 30+ in every quarter but the third quarter. 8 tos in the third definitely helped bury us, that mixed with some cold shooting. The Suns will struggle with defensive oriented teams,but for the teams who can't defend them, they must try to score with them. That's how their built, you saw their bench players burying shots down the stretch. That's because they're built to take your best shot, and keep throwin guys that can score at you. You wanna sit your hot hand, ok well you'd better stop us from scoring if you don't plan on doing it.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 6, 2010 3:36 PM | Report abuse


"The segment 'Play Nick and sit Cartier, play Cartier and sit Alonzo' is something that might help the team for a game or two, depending on the matchups. But wouldn't alter the team's prospects (in the longer term). Are you saying that in fact it would? I'd be interested in hearing your rationale if that's the case."

I see. So it appears you're making the determination that none of Gee, Martin and Young factors much into the team's longer term success. Again, you might be right, but that is far from proven, especially with Young. That clearly being the case, it shouldn't cause too much heartache or upset the apple cart to tinker with the lineup and figure out if Martin or Young might be able to give us something in the shorter term and/or the longer term. Gee, in particular, appears to be a bad fit for Wall if Hinrich is in the game too. I'd also be interested in hearing your reasons why starting Hinrich and Gee with Wall enhances Wall's or the team's longer term prospects, if, indeed, you feel that way.

Short term or longer term, you have to put Wall (the guy whose confidence and recognition skills Flip wants to increase) in a position where he can ultimately succeed. Flip's current strategy fails for both timeframes, imo.

Posted by: and_1 | December 6, 2010 3:41 PM | Report abuse

"What if playing Nick 30mins/night resulted in him emerging as a legit, 20pts/night scorer at SG? Or SF? That doesnt change the clubs long term prospects, whether through keeping him in that role or via a trade?" posted by divi3

What if? questions are always a challenge, because they assume so much. The unspoken question is, what if he went into a slump, or got hurt, or the defense made adjustments to take away his favorite shot? Just a lot of unknowns. I usually avoid what if's? the way I avoid predictions about season records.

Nick's played in 249 games for the Wizards, with 30 starts. Year to date he's averaging 21.3 minutes, 12.2 points, 48% FG shooting with 35.7% from beyond the arc. Rebounds are 1.9, assists 0.9, steals 0.4, turnovers .44, fouls 1.44. All that's coming off the bench.

I do think that gives us a pretty good idea of his potential. We probably just disagree on what it is.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 3:50 PM | Report abuse

I see. So it appears you're making the determination that none of Gee, Martin and Young factors much into the team's longer term success. Again, you might be right, but that is far from proven, especially with Young. That clearly being the case, it shouldn't cause too much heartache or upset the apple cart to tinker with the lineup and figure out if Martin or Young might be able to give us something in the shorter term and/or the longer term. Gee, in particular, appears to be a bad fit for Wall if Hinrich is in the game too. I'd also be interested in hearing your reasons why starting Hinrich and Gee with Wall enhances Wall's or the team's longer term prospects, if, indeed, you feel that way.

Short term or longer term, you have to put Wall (the guy whose confidence and recognition skills Flip wants to increase) in a position where he can ultimately succeed. Flip's current strategy fails for both timeframes, imo.

Posted by: and_1 | December 6, 2010 3:41 PM | Report abuse
Hit the nail on the head. Nobody's talking about changing stuff just for the sake of changing stuff. We're looking really bad right now. We haven't won a road game yet. The status quo must be changed. If we keep things the same will they automatically start working? Or is Josh Howard gonna come back and save our season from the bench ( so as not to shake things up)? We don't know what CM or NY can do with that starting role, but we know what Gee's doing with it. We know what AT's been able to do with it. NY's really coming on, it's a slap in the face to start Gee over him. That guy's kinda not all that great in a lot of ways. Great motor, good hops, NBA body. No handle,limited jumper, and my personal favorite seemingly low basketball IQ.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 6, 2010 3:53 PM | Report abuse


"What if? questions are always a challenge, because they assume so much. The unspoken question is, what if he went into a slump, or got hurt, or the defense made adjustments to take away his favorite shot? Just a lot of unknowns. I usually avoid what if's? the way I avoid predictions about season records."

So the best way to find out answers to the "what if's" is to do nothing, just maintain status quo?

Posted by: and_1 | December 6, 2010 3:54 PM | Report abuse

"I see. So it appears you're making the determination that none of Gee, Martin and Young factors much into the team's longer term success. Again, you might be right, but that is far from proven, especially with Young. That clearly being the case, it shouldn't cause too much heartache or upset the apple cart to tinker with the lineup and figure out if Martin or Young might be able to give us something in the shorter term and/or the longer term. Gee, in particular, appears to be a bad fit for Wall if Hinrich is in the game too. I'd also be interested in hearing your reasons why starting Hinrich and Gee with Wall enhances Wall's or the team's longer term prospects, if, indeed, you feel that way."

I notice you didn't answer my question, which was whether you believed that juggling Nick, Alonzo, or Cartier at SF would improve the team's long-term prospects. And why.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 3:55 PM | Report abuse

"So the best way to find out answers to the "what if's" is to do nothing, just maintain status quo?Posted by: and_1"

So the way to keep a silly discussion going is just to infer something unsaid from somebody else's comment & hope they bite? No wonder Larry likes you.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 3:58 PM | Report abuse

I do think that gives us a pretty good idea of his potential. We probably just disagree on what it is.

He's 25yrs old and you've got the book written on him just as he's having what could be a career season? Do you follow PER stats? There's a very solid case to be made that right now he's been the best player on the team. Can he sustain? Who knows, but to assume (as you are) that he can't in favor of playing declining/spendy players like KH and Gil does not seem to make any sense if the team is trying to build for the future.

Posted by: divi3 | December 6, 2010 4:01 PM | Report abuse

"What if playing Nick 30mins/night resulted in him emerging as a legit, 20pts/night scorer at SG? Or SF? That doesnt change the clubs long term prospects, whether through keeping him in that role or via a trade?" posted by divi3

What if? questions are always a challenge, because they assume so much. The unspoken question is, what if he went into a slump, or got hurt, or the defense made adjustments to take away his favorite shot? Just a lot of unknowns. I usually avoid what if's? the way I avoid predictions about season records.

Nick's played in 249 games for the Wizards, with 30 starts. Year to date he's averaging 21.3 minutes, 12.2 points, 48% FG shooting with 35.7% from beyond the arc. Rebounds are 1.9, assists 0.9, steals 0.4, turnovers .44, fouls 1.44. All that's coming off the bench.

I do think that gives us a pretty good idea of his potential. We probably just disagree on what it is.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 3:50 PM | Report abuse

Let the other teams worry bout how they're gonna "defend his favorite shot" cuz i got news for ya. We've already seen it. He's been killin with the pullup off the curl since he's been getting his tick. Now teams overplay it, he pumps and is going to the rim. Let's not lock him down for them, that's silly. And injuries are part of the game. Don't tell me ole Flipper's been holding NY's mins back because he's worried about his health.

Nick's played in 249 games for the Wizards, with 30 starts. Year to date he's averaging 21.3 minutes, 12.2 points, 48% FG shooting with 35.7% from beyond the arc. Rebounds are 1.9, assists 0.9, steals 0.4, turnovers .44, fouls 1.44. All that's coming off the bench.

I do think that gives us a pretty good idea of his potential. We probably just disagree on what it is.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 3:50 PM | Report abuse

i don't know what's really no to like about his line,but he's improving before your eyes if you watch games vs quoting stats. It's pretty silly to think that Alonzo Gee starting at the 3 gives us a better chance to win than NY. His line goes 13mpg 5ppg 2.5 rpg .5apg .6spg .9 TOpg.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 6, 2010 4:03 PM | Report abuse

"Nobody's talking about changing stuff just for the sake of changing stuff. We're looking really bad right now. We haven't won a road game yet."

Most folks here aren't arguing that any one player provides a significant upgrade over the other. Just that we're not winning anyway, so why not?

What one coach described as 'throwing s--- against the wall to see what sticks."

Exception would be divi's constant promotion of Javale and Nick. He really believes in them.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 4:03 PM | Report abuse

FIRE FLIP. this team wont go anywhere or progress enough with flip saunders. his rotations are horrible. arenas benched? wat a joke. hinrich playing almost 40 mins a night? wata joke. yi playing more mins than mcgee now? joke. gee starting over thortan? joke. flip is horrible. he needs to be fired asap. how are areneas and wall ever gonna learn to play together with hinrich starting over gil? flip is flat out horrible.

Posted by: skinsfan09 | December 6, 2010 4:05 PM | Report abuse

I notice you didn't answer my question, which was whether you believed that juggling Nick, Alonzo, or Cartier at SF would improve the team's long-term prospects. And why.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 3:55 PM | Report abuse
I dunno who was talkin bout juggling these guys. Just start Nick he's scoring in dub digits every game he's played over 20 mins except 3 of them. He's better than any other option we have at the 3 right now, and i think that can really change our prospects.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 6, 2010 4:06 PM | Report abuse

"i don't know what's really no to like about his line,but he's improving before your eyes if you watch games vs quoting stats. It's pretty silly to think that Alonzo Gee starting at the 3 gives us a better chance to win than NY. His line goes 13mpg 5ppg 2.5 rpg .5apg .6spg .9 TOpg.Posted by: lilhollywood10"

Maybe Flip doesn't think it's important who starts. That is what he says, over and over, after all.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 4:07 PM | Report abuse

"Let the other teams worry bout how they're gonna "defend his favorite shot" cuz i got news for ya. We've already seen it. He's been killin with the pullup off the curl since he's been getting his tick. Now teams overplay it, he pumps and is going to the rim. Let's not lock him down for them, that's silly. And injuries are part of the game. Don't tell me ole Flipper's been holding NY's mins back because he's worried about his health." posted by lilhollywood

I wouldn't dream of telling you anything. You're not listening.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 4:09 PM | Report abuse

"[Nick Young] 25yrs old and you've got the book written on him just as he's having what could be a career season? Do you follow PER stats? There's a very solid case to be made that right now he's been the best player on the team. Can he sustain? Who knows, but to assume (as you are) that he can't in favor of playing declining/spendy players like KH and Gil does not seem to make any sense if the team is trying to build for the future.Posted by: divi3"

Divi likes Nick. A lot. In other news, the sun rose in the East this AM...

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 4:11 PM | Report abuse

NY's really coming on, it's a slap in the face to start Gee over him. That guy's kinda not all that great in a lot of ways. Great motor, good hops, NBA body. No handle,limited jumper, and my personal favorite seemingly low basketball IQ.
Posted by: lilhollywood10

I absolutely love many things about NY but . . . You're not really saying you think his basketball IQ is higher than Gee's?

Posted by: nmik | December 6, 2010 4:12 PM | Report abuse

About the PER: I don't like stats that amalgamate diverse other stats into a single number. I also don't like QB ratings in football. I think they mislead more than they clarify.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 4:13 PM | Report abuse

Exception would be divi's constant promotion of Javale and Nick. He really believes in them.

Compare the stats you just posted for NY to KHs line and Gil's. You'll need to perform some mental gymnastics to assert he's not clearly outplaying both of them right now. Hollinger has KHs PER stat at "Be sure your passport is valid." Gil is really inefficient right now...but yeah, best not play the younger guy who's better.

Give the guys who perform best the most minutes. Doesnt seem like an unreasonable request.

Posted by: divi3 | December 6, 2010 4:15 PM | Report abuse


"I notice you didn't answer my question, which was whether you believed that juggling Nick, Alonzo, or Cartier at SF would improve the team's long-term prospects. And why."

Down the road (longer term), Wall better be playing with wings who can help spread the floor and allow him utilize his unquestioned strength which is his speed and fearlessness taking th ball to the rack. Nobody fears Gee or Hinrich shooting so they don't necessarily have to play Wall honest and stay close to their man. Hence, John is running into buzzsaw defenses that take away his strength and force him to shoot. If defenses slough off of Young or Martin, they're capable of hitting shots and coach doesn't have to tell those guys to shoot.

If Wall is playing with the likes of a Gee and Hinrich as his wings years from now, he's outta here and there goes the "longer term" plan anyway.

Again, are Wall's and team's best interests being served by starting Gee and Hinrich with Wall. If so, why?

Posted by: and_1 | December 6, 2010 4:16 PM | Report abuse

Maybe Flip doesn't think it's important who starts. That is what he says, over and over, after all.

Posted by: Samson151 | December 6, 2010 4:07 PM | Report abuse

That's bs. If you wanna buy it go for it. if the starters dig a 14 point hole in the third quarter then hell yeah i guess it does matter who finishes the game, cuz it's gonna have to be a comeback. But if it doesn't matter who starts then why not bench Gee, and mix him in situations where he can be more effective.Please help me understand what Flip means; as it applies to the team he is currently coaching, when he says "it's not about who starts, it's about who finishes". BTW he also says it's not about winning or losing.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 6, 2010 4:16 PM | Report abuse


"So the way to keep a silly discussion going is just to infer something unsaid from somebody else's comment & hope they bite? No wonder Larry likes you."

Since you're in full backpedal mode, I'll rephrase my earlier question: If you have questions (what if's) about a player in a certain capacity, why not get some answers to those questions by putting said player in said capacity?

Posted by: and_1 | December 6, 2010 4:19 PM | Report abuse

I absolutely love many things about NY but . . . You're not really saying you think his basketball IQ is higher than Gee's?

Posted by: nmik | December 6, 2010 4:12 PM | Report abuse

Are you telling me you have any possible information or way to quantify that it isn't? Alonzo gee of undrafted, d league fame? A lot of people passed on him coming out and i doubt it was because they didn't like his jaw dropping athleticism or hard nosed style of play. I'm just speculating.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 6, 2010 4:20 PM | Report abuse

I absolutely love many things about NY but . . . You're not really saying you think his basketball IQ is higher than Gee's?

Posted by: nmik | December 6, 2010 4:12 PM | Report abuse

NY is a lot better than Gee at the game of basketball. i'm almost certain he does have a higher bball iq than Gee, especially considering NY has discovered other ways to put the ball through the rim than just ramming it with two hands.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 6, 2010 4:22 PM | Report abuse


"Most folks here aren't arguing that any one player provides a significant upgrade over the other. Just that we're not winning anyway, so why not? What one coach described as 'throwing s--- against the wall to see what sticks.""

That's what Flip is doing by starting Gee and Hinrich with Wall and bringing Arenas and Young off the bench. At some point, it becomes apparent that it's not irresponsible to make further changes if the original moves don't work out.

Posted by: and_1 | December 6, 2010 4:23 PM | Report abuse

Divi likes Nick. A lot. In other news, the sun rose in the East this AM

I like guys who can play. How about you tell us what it is about other players that puts them ahead of NY for this team. You know, talk some baskteball instead of ambiguous nothing-speak about it not really mattering who plays anyway so why bother changing anything.

Posted by: divi3 | December 6, 2010 4:25 PM | Report abuse


"How about you tell us what it is about other players that puts them ahead of NY for this team. You know, talk some baskteball instead of ambiguous nothing-speak about it not really mattering who plays anyway so why bother changing anything."

I didn't want to put it quite that way, divi3, but you knocked it out of the park (or should I say monster dunked it)!

Posted by: and_1 | December 6, 2010 4:30 PM | Report abuse

I absolutely love many things about NY but . . . You're not really saying you think his basketball IQ is higher than Gee's?
Posted by: nmik |

Are you telling me you have any possible information or way to quantify that it isn't? Alonzo gee of undrafted, d league fame? A lot of people passed on him coming out and i doubt it was because they didn't like his jaw dropping athleticism or hard nosed style of play. I'm just speculating.
Posted by: lilhollywood10

No, of course I have no "information" about either Young's or Gee's "basketball IQ". Like you, I'm just speculating. On the whole, I suspect (speculation only) that the team as a whole is rather low in that area.

Posted by: nmik | December 6, 2010 4:35 PM | Report abuse

About the PER: I don't like stats that amalgamate diverse other stats into a single number.

What stat(s) do you like? None are perfect, but there are enough out there to use several in conjunction when trying to assess a given player or rotation

Posted by: divi3 | December 6, 2010 4:37 PM | Report abuse

"How about you tell us what it is about other players that puts them ahead of NY for this team. You know, talk some baskteball instead of ambiguous nothing-speak about it not really mattering who plays anyway so why bother changing anything."

I didn't want to put it quite that way, divi3, but you knocked it out of the park (or should I say monster dunked it)!

Posted by: and_1 | December 6, 2010 4:30 PM | Report abuse

i was going down that road too holmes. It's funny cuz with flip "it's not about wins and losses", and "it's not about who starts, but who finishes" At some point you've got to think it's just about cashing a check with this guy.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 6, 2010 4:37 PM | Report abuse

No, of course I have no "information" about either Young's or Gee's "basketball IQ". Like you, I'm just speculating. On the whole, I suspect (speculation only) that the team as a whole is rather low in that area.

Posted by: nmik | December 6, 2010 4:35 PM | Report abuse
Could be, but that wasn't your original comment now was it?

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 6, 2010 4:40 PM | Report abuse

Divi likes Nick. A lot. In other news, the sun rose in the East this AM

I like guys who can play. How about you tell us what it is about other players that puts them ahead of NY for this team. You know, talk some baskteball instead of ambiguous nothing-speak about it not really mattering who plays anyway so why bother changing anything.

Posted by: divi3 | December 6, 2010 4:25 PM | Report abuse

We're still waiting for that.Or at least tell us that gee deserves the spot on merit and not just because his one inch height disadvantage and 10 lb weight advantage make him a better basketball players than NY's string of 20 pt games. Once again Gee hasn't scored in double figures ONCE this year. NY looks like he could go for 30+ in the starting role with starters minutes.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 6, 2010 4:42 PM | Report abuse


"At some point you've got to think it's just about cashing a check with this guy."

I hear you, lilhollywood10. It took me awhile to get there, but something just isn't right with Flop.

Posted by: and_1 | December 6, 2010 4:44 PM | Report abuse

No, of course I have no "information" about either Young's or Gee's "basketball IQ". Like you, I'm just speculating. On the whole, I suspect (speculation only) that the team as a whole is rather low in that area.
Posted by: nmik

Could be, but that wasn't your original comment now was it?
Posted by: lilhollywood10

This back-and-forth has passed the silly stage but, for the record, I'll repost my original "comment" (actually a question):

"I absolutely love many things about NY but . . . You're not really saying you think his basketball IQ is higher than Gee's?"

Posted by: nmik | December 6, 2010 4:49 PM | Report abuse

"At some point you've got to think it's just about cashing a check with this guy."

I hear you, lilhollywood10. It took me awhile to get there, but something just isn't right with Flop.

Posted by: and_1 | December 6, 2010 4:44 PM | Report abuse

It doesn't look like he cares. he looks really passionate about coaching John Wall, but not so much with everybody else.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | December 6, 2010 4:50 PM | Report abuse

FIRE FLIP. this team wont go anywhere or progress enough with flip saunders. his rotations are horrible. arenas benched? wat a joke. hinrich playing almost 40 mins a night? wata joke. yi playing more mins than mcgee now? joke. gee starting over thortan? joke. flip is horrible. he needs to be fired asap. how are areneas and wall ever gonna learn to play together with hinrich starting over gil? flip is flat out horrible.

Posted by: skinsfan09 | December 6, 2010 4:55 PM | Report abuse

Ted Leonsis please react to this coaching mess!!!! Why is Arenas in the bench and Kirk starting???? Ok Let's get to the point here, Arenas needs to start!!! and the wiz need a new coach!!!

Posted by: eddy_junior | December 6, 2010 8:52 PM | Report abuse

Ted Leonsis please do something about this coaching mess!!!!!!! Why is Arenas on the bench and Kirk Starting???? is this a joke or what. Arenas needs to start!!!!! and wiz need a new coach!!!!!

Posted by: eddy_junior | December 6, 2010 8:56 PM | Report abuse

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