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Posted at 2:52 PM ET, 03/ 3/2011

Lewis might need season-ending surgery

By Michael Lee

Rashard Lewis said on Thursday that he might have to have season-ending surgery to repair the problems in his right knee and that a decision to shut down his season could be made later in the day. Lewis spoke with his agent, Tony Dutt, who was expected to reach a decision after discussing options with Wizards President Ernie Grunfeld and the team's medical and training staff.

"I'm in conversations with my agent and with the staff now of deciding if we're going to get the scope done or not," he said. "We either going to get it done this week or we going to grind it out and wait until the season is over with. I'll know in a couple hours."

Lewis hinted three weeks ago that "surgery is an option" but added that he was hesitant, hoping that some rest and treatment could help him get through the remainder of the season. Lewis missed the last three games before the all-star break, but since returning, he has mostly received limited minutes and his situation isn't improving.

"It's not getting better at all," Lewis said. "The knee's just stopped me from doing a lot of things I want to do on the court, and I think it's just getting to a point where I'm going to have to get the scope done, start the rehab and hopefully just come back with a fresh start and healthy. Start all over."

In six games since the all-star break, Lewis is averaging just four points and shooting 30.7 percent (8-of-26) from the floor. He had just two points, on 0 for 2 shooting, in five minutes on Wednesday in the Wizards' 106-102 loss against Golden State.

Lewis was acquired from Orlando in exchange for Gilbert Arenas on Dec. 18, but said he has experienced problems with his right knee all season. "It's not something that happened when I got here. It's been all year long. It's just got worse as the year went on," said Lewis, admitting that this has been a difficult season. "It's been very tough. Getting traded in the middle of the season, with the injury, and not being able to perform to a high level on a new team to show, you know, trying to show signs of turning an organization around. But with this injury, it's just holding me back."

Coach Flip Saunders missed practice again and assistant Randy Wittman filled in. Wittman was unsure when Saunders would be able to return. "I really don't know where it is," Wittman said when asked for an update. "I talked to Flip this morning and was going to wait until this afternoon to see how the situation with his family is this afternoon. He might be coming back here tomorrow. He might not. As time passes, we'll know more."

Lewis has been reluctant to have surgery for several reasons, one being the perception that comes with ending the season early for a team that is just 15-45. "I don't want to leave these guys out to dry, leave them hanging with having a tough season," he said.

"When we win, we all win. When we lose, we all lose so I don't want to make it look like I'm quitting on these guys. That's why I've just been trying to stick it out even though I can't perform. I've just made my presence to help. I don't want it to seem like I'm folding on these guys. I'm just trying to keep pushing."

By Michael Lee  | March 3, 2011; 2:52 PM ET
 
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Comments

whatever the wizards medical staff says...do the opposite.

Posted by: skinsfan09 | March 3, 2011 3:15 PM | Report abuse

Just a curious thought: Wouldn't the Wizards have been sure about this surgery issue with Rashard before they decided to buy out Al Thornton??? Josh Howard is limited to 20 minutes a game because of his post-surgery issues. Mo Evans does not know the offense yet. Maybe Booker will get more playing time at the 3. He deserves it!

Posted by: center3 | March 3, 2011 3:19 PM | Report abuse

Rashard Lewis needs to find the best doctor he can find for that kind of injury and follow the rehab schedule exactly. We have had an example here of Gilbert who did everything wrong. I wish him lots of luck and a speedy recovery whenever it is done.

Posted by: JoeC2 | March 3, 2011 3:22 PM | Report abuse

Just our luck.

Posted by: Joe08121990 | March 3, 2011 3:57 PM | Report abuse

We traded Gilbert for a cheaper Gilbert...bad knee and all. Nothing to see here, move along.

Posted by: urallimbeciles | March 3, 2011 3:58 PM | Report abuse

"Just a curious thought: Wouldn't the Wizards have been sure about this surgery issue with Rashard before they decided to buy out Al Thornton???"Posted by: center3

Let's see, looks like the Wiz have 22 games left. I suppose they could have continued paying Thornton --- let him get some in some meaningless court time, and perhaps been stuck with him going into next season. Or they could let somebody else play out the string.

Because that's what they're doing. Far as I can tell from the last few outings, Javale has already packed up the Navigator and headed home. In mind at least.

Posted by: Samson151 | March 3, 2011 4:12 PM | Report abuse

whatever the wizards medical staff says...do the opposite.

Posted by: skinsfan09 | March 3, 2011 3:15 PM | Report abuse

Let's just hope that Gilbert didn't leave behind the 'chute. Otherwise Lewis will be back out there running wind sprints 5 days after surgery.

Posted by: NWDC3 | March 3, 2011 4:24 PM | Report abuse

Shut it down. This season is lost and Lewis might have something left. If the Wiz medical staff say he can play it out, definitely shut it down!

Posted by: ifionlyhadabrain | March 3, 2011 4:46 PM | Report abuse

This brings up a couple of issues of inept management. One, it was obvious that he brought this trouble from Orlando. So the question is, was getting rid of Gilbert worth taking on 20 million of debt for a guy that can't play anymore. Surely the Wiz knew about this. Secondly, knowing about this they trade away AL Thorton, who is better than Mo Evans and Rishard Lewis and now Lewis can't even finish the season. How did Lewis pass his physical at trade time? It's bs when the coach talks about bringing energy, because that is what Thorton did every night.

Posted by: bobilly1 | March 3, 2011 4:56 PM | Report abuse

Maybe Lewis is hoping for a contract extension since Ernie gave Gil and Howard a contract while both of them had knee injuries?

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | March 3, 2011 5:01 PM | Report abuse

It's subjective, but I never thought Al Thornton was a great fit in Washington. For basically the same reasons this very talented offensive player was only averaging 28 minutes in LA. My thought was that he could be a productive rotation player with Josh Howard, a much superior defender, but Howard never got healthy. So personally I'm just as happy to see Thornton go to a better situation for him, and the Wiz have one less unused veteran on the roster.

Posted by: Samson151 | March 3, 2011 5:02 PM | Report abuse

I know this team has a bad history with knee injuries that are more serious than they initial seem, but can we stop for a minute with the sturm und drang? I haven't heard anything about any collateral ligament tears. Since he's been able to play with it, very likely he has some cartilage damage and some loose particles floating around his knee causing pain and inflammation. Serious enough, but not the end of the world.

Posted by: ts35 | March 3, 2011 5:02 PM | Report abuse

This brings up a couple of issues of inept management. One, it was obvious that he brought this trouble from Orlando. So the question is, was getting rid of Gilbert worth taking on 20 million of debt for a guy that can't play anymore. Surely the Wiz knew about this. Secondly, knowing about this they trade away AL Thorton, who is better than Mo Evans and Rishard Lewis and now Lewis can't even finish the season. How did Lewis pass his physical at trade time? It's bs when the coach talks about bringing energy, because that is what Thorton did every night.

Posted by: bobilly1 | March 3, 2011 4:56 PM | Report abuse

It was worth it,cuz Kal said it was last thread.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | March 3, 2011 5:18 PM | Report abuse

EGrunz has got to go--he's had his chance to build things around here once and didn't get it done. Saunders should go also, but mostly for his sake so he can get a fresh start somewhere else. Then bring in a GM who will then hire the right coach, so we can develop things properly like they did in OK City. Wizards get a fresh start, and Grunfeld and Saunders can move on to other things.

Wall's winning presence on the team notwithstanding (and OK, Booker is a good add also), too much of the rest of this team just feels like its going in the wrong direction. And dump Blatche (or Baltche or whatever) for a ham sandwich too. Can't have more than one knucklehead on the team, and I'd rather keep JaVale McGee.

Posted by: rblav40 | March 3, 2011 5:32 PM | Report abuse

Rashard sucks, who cares?

- Ray

Posted by: rmcazz | March 3, 2011 5:34 PM | Report abuse

What is the big mystery about this decision to make??? He took time off during the allstar break, is not feeling any better and is wondering whether to have surgery and forget the rest of the season??? DUH....

Let me make it for him then...Have the surgery now STUPID...

Posted by: pentagon40 | March 3, 2011 6:09 PM | Report abuse

I don't think the NBA tests for "supplements" over the summer. Do the surgery now, rehab the knee, and then rehab the shooting form. The Wizards still have Howard, Evans and Martin to end the season.

Posted by: djnnnou | March 3, 2011 6:09 PM | Report abuse

This is probably the best news Lewis has gotten all season.

Posted by: kalo_rama | March 3, 2011 6:15 PM | Report abuse

He's not actually injured, he's just faking it to give Mo Evans a chance to prove himself.

Posted by: ts35 | March 3, 2011 6:23 PM | Report abuse

Welcome to the world of Washington sports Rashard. This is just how it goes in this town.

Posted by: 20yrskinfan | March 3, 2011 7:52 PM | Report abuse

Let's see, no Bibby, no more Rashard, no more AT, and no more Hinrich.

Heck, now Brickem Young is going to be pumping up 40 shots a game!

Posted by: shovetheplanet | March 3, 2011 8:13 PM | Report abuse

N'DIAYE is nowhere to be seen. We've already d-league him.

McGEE is a situational player only to this point. We must have a solid center in this draft. Draft one with our first.

Give JIANLIAN about the same amount of burn depending on who we play, and trade him when the season in over.

Let BLATCHE play less.

Let SERAPHIN play more even if he makes an ass of himself. He needs PT to continue his development which I'm beginning to see.

Give LEWIS a 'scope, and let him be relieved for the rest of the season.

Let BOOKER play a lot instead.

Give JOSH HOWARD as much burn as his knee will stand, but draft a great three with out first unless we take a center with that pick.

Let MO EVANS audition for a back-up role next seasdon if he wants to stay, but in any event draft a three.

Let MARTIN continue as bench strength into next season unless we can get an upgrade.

Let YOUNG play regularly util we develop CRAWFORD which will be several years.

Let WALL continue to be schooled, and get a capable back-up over the summer if SHAKUR is not the answer.

Posted by: glawrence007 | March 3, 2011 8:29 PM | Report abuse

The Wizard is behind the curtains!

Posted by: wheresthemoney | March 3, 2011 8:31 PM | Report abuse

"So the question is, was getting rid of Gilbert worth taking on 20 million of debt for a guy that can't play anymore. Posted by: bobilly1"

You must be kidding. Gilbert represented the worst contract in basketball. Rashard's may have been bad, but at least he spent most of the last couple years actually playing. Gilbert hasn't distinguished himself in Orlando: 21 minutes and 8 points on 34.5% shooting, 25.6% from the arc. Lewis has averaged 32 minutes, 11.8 points, 43.6% FGs, 34.2% from outside. Plus he played a little defense.

And last I looked, Rashard hadn't embarrassed his team and his fans with episodes of colossal bad judgment.

Posted by: Samson151 | March 3, 2011 9:00 PM | Report abuse

"It was worth it,cuz Kal said it was last thread.Posted by: lilhollywood10"

You'd have to be in the grip of an organic brain syndrome not to realize that. The fact that somebody had to remind us is evidence of just how far afield from reality we can get.

Posted by: Samson151 | March 3, 2011 9:02 PM | Report abuse

"So the question is, was getting rid of Gilbert worth taking on 20 million of debt for a guy that can't play anymore. Posted by: bobilly1"


I don't know. It's sorta like choosing between heart disease and cancer. The long-term prognosis isn't good with Rashard Lewis or Gilbert Arenas on the roster.

One thing's for certain: Gilbert could have mentored John Wall AND secured some playing time for Nick Young. Do you really believe that Mustapha Shakur or Jordan Crawford are able to teach John Wall???
What the rush to jettison Gil? At the end of the season, management could still have unloaded Arenas.

Rashard Lewis, on the other hand, was damaged goods when he was traded for Gil. [And the Wizards front office knew it]. As far as I'm can see, Rashard is no more than Yi Jianlian with a jumpshot. But trimming down the payroll was more important to Ted and Ernie than putting an entertaining product on the court.

Posted by: musicmanjr | March 3, 2011 9:47 PM | Report abuse

"One thing's for certain: Gilbert could have mentored John Wall AND secured some playing time for Nick Young. Do you really believe that Mustapha Shakur or Jordan Crawford are able to teach John Wall???
What the rush to jettison Gil? At the end of the season, management could still have unloaded Arenas. posted by musicmanjr"

I'm pretty sure they were hoping that Gilbert wouldn't be the mentor for their young 'franchise'. Unlike some of us around here, they haven't forgotten the sort of leadership he showed in the past.

BTW, Rashard Lewis has been a solid citizen since he arrived in Washington. Be nice if we valued that a little.

Posted by: Samson151 | March 3, 2011 10:14 PM | Report abuse

"Rashard Lewis, on the other hand, was damaged goods when he was traded for Gil. [And the Wizards front office knew it]. As far as I'm can see, Rashard is no more than Yi Jianlian with a jumpshot. But trimming down the payroll was more important to Ted and Ernie than putting an entertaining product on the court.Posted by: musicmanjr"

This is what I meant by 'in the grip of an organic brain syndrome.'

Posted by: Samson151 | March 3, 2011 10:15 PM | Report abuse

Not worth getting caught up in. It's still the team with a mediocre GM, generally mediocre players who only get excited when it's payday, a blah coach, and excuses. Yes, it's the Wizards and even Ted Leonsis may not be able to buck the tradition.

Posted by: wp318676 | March 3, 2011 11:14 PM | Report abuse

Mike,

What can you tell us from an "Insider" view about the Wizards medical staff...

Is it the same staff that was here when Ted bought the team?

Posted by: bulletsfan78 | March 3, 2011 11:19 PM | Report abuse

the CURSE ROFL!!!

Look for Grunny n Teddy to buy the whole team out, except for Heinrich. Time to call it a season.

LES BOULEZ PROPHET III

Posted by: prescrunk | March 4, 2011 12:13 AM | Report abuse

Anyone think Sac would do Cousins for McGee swap? IMO we should deal Mcgee now while he has press from his dunk contest showing and is viewed as an up & coming talent. Maybe include the ATL pick or 2nd rounder?

Draft

Posted by: Darnell1 | March 4, 2011 12:30 AM | Report abuse

Anyone think Sac would do Cousins for McGee swap? IMO we should deal Mcgee now while he has press from his dunk contest showing and is viewed as an up & coming talent. Maybe include the ATL pick or 2nd rounder?

Draft

Posted by: Darnell1 | March 4, 2011 12:31 AM | Report abuse

"Rashard Lewis, on the other hand, was damaged goods when he was traded for Gil. [And the Wizards front office knew it]. As far as I'm can see, Rashard is no more than Yi Jianlian with a jumpshot. But trimming down the payroll was more important to Ted and Ernie than putting an entertaining product on the court."

Posted by: musicmanjr | March 3, 2011 9:47 PM

Problem was, while Arenas was entertaining, little if any of his entertainment value could be found on the basketball court.

Posted by: kalo_rama | March 4, 2011 1:45 AM | Report abuse

"Anyone think Sac would do Cousins for McGee swap?"

Not gonna happen.

Posted by: kalo_rama | March 4, 2011 1:48 AM | Report abuse

Might shut it down? Not sure he ever turned it on?

Posted by: bszdnva | March 4, 2011 4:35 AM | Report abuse

And last I looked, Rashard hadn't embarrassed his team and his fans with episodes of colossal bad judgment. Posted by: Samson151

BTW, Rashard Lewis has been a solid citizen since he arrived in Washington. Be nice if we valued that a little. Posted by: Samson151

Problem was, while Arenas was entertaining, little if any of his entertainment value could be found on the basketball court.
Posted by: kalo_rama

This is what I mean about guys wanting BASKETBALL PLAYERS to perform open heart surgery, lead unions, minister churches, world leaders, ect. Look, these guys are NOT role models for me and I hope I speak for many, I just want to see them do what they're overpaid to do, play inspired basketball and win some freaking games. PERIOD.

I have no problem with what any of them do off the court becsuse 18-25 yr olds and millions of dollars is rarely a good mix because we all can think of the stupid things we did at 18 but imagne if we had the money to go with it. Only Kalo and Sampson would have used it to become role models or invest it to invest in world peace.

Character guys that keep their noses clean equal Washington Wizards? Boring

Posted by: zack5 | March 4, 2011 5:51 AM | Report abuse

"Look for Grunny n Teddy to buy the whole team out, except for Heinrich. Time to call it a season.LES BOULEZ PROPHET IIIPosted by: prescrunk"

OK maybe this guy is even more organic than the other guy

Posted by: Samson151 | March 4, 2011 6:51 AM | Report abuse

"Character guys that keep their noses clean equal Washington Wizards? Boring"Posted by: zack5

Guys who are constantly making excuses for their jock heroes? Boring.

Posted by: Samson151 | March 4, 2011 6:53 AM | Report abuse

Guys who are constantly making excuses for their jock heroes? Boring.

Posted by: Samson151

Where in that post do you see a made excuse. Over paid athlete with money? Fact

Not role models? Fact

Boring Character player? Fact

Imaginary citizenship award winners? Fiction

I rest my case.

Posted by: zack5 | March 4, 2011 8:04 AM | Report abuse

Guys who are constantly making excuses for their jock heroes? Boring.

Posted by: Samson151 | March 4, 2011 6:53 AM

Guys who run to the rescue to defend upper management from any and all criticism? Boring.

Posted by: gmac78 | March 4, 2011 8:05 AM | Report abuse

"Guys who run to the rescue to defend upper management from any and all criticism? Boring.Posted by: gmac78"

Guys who can't think up anything of their own to say? Typical for WI.

Posted by: Samson151 | March 4, 2011 8:27 AM | Report abuse

"I rest my case.Posted by: zack5"

What case?

For instance, who said "This is what I mean about guys wanting BASKETBALL PLAYERS to perform open heart surgery, lead unions, minister churches, world leaders, ect."

You did.

Nobody else expects Wizards to do any of those things. So basically you're arguing with yourself again.

Do you win those?

In case you ever want to address something I said as opposed to your latest version of Ray Bolger as the Scarecrow, here's something to chew on:

Gilbert A. pretty much made an ass out of himself. Far as I'm concerned, getting rid of him and his fat contract was a boon for the Wizards. And he was lucky enough to go to Orlando, so he has to be happy about that.

All's well that ends well.

You just fabricated it for the purposes of rant.

Posted by: Samson151 | March 4, 2011 8:34 AM | Report abuse

What ever RL wants to do ,there is no impact on the team.The best should be to make him healthy for possible 2012 mid season trade.
I saw some thing on miami last night.CB is not being used well, his contribution on the defense is not good.Pat raley is excellent in evaluating teams. I think he will put him on market for a defenssive minded big man.
who is that man? I do not know but the wiz need to focus try to combine JM with this years lottery pick to another team who will be willing to give a good defenssive minded big to miami(three way trade) it sounds a dream.

Posted by: gtefferra | March 4, 2011 8:46 AM | Report abuse

The Wizards are flat out playing for ping pong balls now.

The Lewis deal was worth it, it was time to move on from Gil. I've come to the conclusion that Gil's damaged goods, either his knee won't let him perform at a high level, or more likely Gil's got a mental block about going 100%. Either way it's better to let someone else deal with it and move on with the rebuilding project.

Lewis is signed for a year less then Gil, so it's worth taking him on to gain the extra year of salary flexibility on the backend. I'd say get him healthy now, he might have some trade value at the deadline next year, but more likely it goes up in the last year of his deal.

From the last blog. Draft Curry, or trade the #5 pick? People seem to forget by renouncing Mike Miller and Foye, Ernie cleared enough salary cap to be able to be in position to take advantage of teams trying to clear the decks for the LeBron derby.

Ernie traded the rights to Veremmenko to Chicago for Hinrich and the 17th pick which turned out to be Seraphin. Then he was able to flip Hinrich for Jordan Crawford and Atlanta's #1 pick this year.
So in effect Ernie flipped the #5 pick for the 17th and 27th pick last spring and a late first round pick in this year's draft. He also got a one season rental of Mike Miller, and Foye, and a 1/2 season rental of Hinrich. Plus there was some cash involved in the Chicago deal.

All and all when looking at a major rebuild, unless the high pick fills a specific need, accumulating extra first rounders seems to be the way to go in most cases. I liked Curry and would have picked him over anything else that was there at that point. But I still can see the logic as to why Grunfeld choose the Miller and Foye deal.

But what wasn't widely understood at the time was Grunfeld made a deal that ended up having a golden escape clause. Seraphin and Crawford are both now showing some promise, Atlanta's pick gives Grunfeld some flexibility in this summer's draft.
And Bibby's buyout gives Grunfeld about 20m of cap space to work with as well as the draft picks.

One guy to really watch will be Kevin Love, there are big doubts about him signing longterm in Minnesota.
Ernie might have the cap space and the extra picks to make something happen there.
Could be the power forward to build around along with Wall.

Posted by: flohrtv | March 4, 2011 10:16 AM | Report abuse


Who cares? The NBA has been unwatchable for 15 years, unless you're mildly retarded.

Posted by: kenk33 | March 4, 2011 10:34 AM | Report abuse

Flohr, I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't think it holds up. Etan's $6M at least would have come off the books at the same time, which combined with their other moves, still would have enabled them to keep the #5 and make the Hinrich deal. They probably wouldn't have had room to do the Yi deal, but I don't think that would end up making or breaking the rebuild.

For the purposes of evaluating EG, the Miller/Foye trade is what it is. On the face, not a bad deal, but a deal standing on a faulty premise of a playoff contending team.

It is funny though with the Clipper / Baron Davis deal, giving up what promises to be a very high choice. You basically heard their GM say the same thing EG said at the time, which was they don't feel like there's a lot of help to be had in this draft. Which, at least on Clipper boards, will probably come back to bite them in the ass the way this trade has for EG. Because then the GM is responsible if *any* player taken with their pick or after it develops into a big-time player. Such is the life of a GM.

Posted by: ts35 | March 4, 2011 10:42 AM | Report abuse

Hind sight is 20/20. Without giving away that 5 pick, we may not be sitting here with John Wall as our future. We could've gotten different lottery balls if Curry came through for some games last year. Wall is bigger than Curry and hopeful he can develop a consistent deep ball. If that happens, the Curry debate is moot.

Posted by: BurgwithaU | March 4, 2011 11:08 AM | Report abuse

Ernie's willing and dealing has created cap space and accumulated some draft picks.

It is water under the bridge that he dumped the 5th pick for Foye/Miller and capspace. So I'm not gonna complain about it.

My thing is, with 1 of those picks, Ernie basically selected Seraphin. Will he pan out? Booker looks decent. Who will select this years non-lottery pick 1st round pick? Will it be the same person that selected Pechorov, Nick, and McGee?

Posted by: G-Man11 | March 4, 2011 11:29 AM | Report abuse

If you had to rank Ernie as an NBA GM, it would have to be somewhere in the bottom half of the league right? I think this offseason would be a good time to start anew.

The Miller/Foye trade was really terrible. He traded a top 5 pick for basically one year of Mike Miller and a fringe rotation player in Foye. The Wizards lucked into the #1 pick in a year they were planning to make a playoff run and ended up in a better place looking into the future, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a terrible trade.

Posted by: ejjam2 | March 4, 2011 11:31 AM | Report abuse

"My thing is, with 1 of those picks, Ernie basically selected Seraphin. Will he pan out? Booker looks decent. Who will select this years non-lottery pick 1st round pick? Will it be the same person that selected Pechorov, Nick, and McGee?"

Agreed. In 8 years of drafting, Ernie has come away with a couple of potentially solid role players - Young and Booker and the no-brainer Wall...8 years. Two of his first round picks are out of the NBA alltogether (Jarvis Hayes and Pecherov).

Posted by: ejjam2 | March 4, 2011 11:44 AM | Report abuse

"The Wizards lucked into the #1 pick in a year they were planning to make a playoff run and ended up in a better place looking into the future, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a terrible trade."

Posted by: ejjam2 | March 4, 2011 11:31 AM

The fact that you think it was a terrible trade doesn't change the fact that your opinion of the trade is not, in fact, a fact.

Posted by: kalo_rama | March 4, 2011 11:45 AM | Report abuse

True, poor wording.

Posted by: ejjam2 | March 4, 2011 11:51 AM | Report abuse

It was a bad trade because Ernie should have drafted a PG, instead he still had all his chips in the Arenas basket, long after everyone else saw the writing on the wall.

But EG thought we were going to make a run and tried to add Miller/Foye, instead of starting the rebuild by drafting a PG..

Of course now we have Wall who is and will be better than anyone we could've drafted but that doesn't change the fact that it was a horrible trade.

Miller stayed and stays hurt and Foye is just nothing more than an average if that, NBA player..

Posted by: kevenjones | March 4, 2011 11:57 AM | Report abuse

Agreed. In 8 years of drafting, Ernie has come away with a couple of potentially solid role players - Young and Booker and the no-brainer Wall...8 years. Two of his first round picks are out of the NBA alltogether (Jarvis Hayes and Pecherov).
Posted by: ejjam2

Jarvis Hayes was MJ's pick.

At the same, if you compare his draft record to most other GMs you find much the same thing, especially if you're consistently drafting in the middle to end of the first round.

This is well-trod ground and leads to inevitable cherry-picking, but if you look at all of those drafts, it's hard to pick out obvious mistakes, players he should have taken instead of the ones he did. Rondo in the Pech year stands out, but we needed bigs more than PGs at that point.

I'm not personally a fan of EG's drafts, but he actually has done about average if you look at it in context.

Posted by: ts35 | March 4, 2011 11:58 AM | Report abuse

The fact that you think it was a terrible trade doesn't change the fact that your opinion of the trade is not, in fact, a fact.

Posted by: kalo_rama | March 4, 2011 11:45 AM

Ah, you just said his OPINION of the trade is not in fact, a fact..

NO SH** Sherlock.. And I do mean Sherlock.
That's why it's his OPINION. An OPINION doesn't need to be a fact..

Instead of always looking through the posts and snipping what you can find to make a comment about, how about you just state your OPINION for a change.

You kill me with this..But you are funny.

Posted by: kevenjones | March 4, 2011 12:02 PM | Report abuse

OK maybe this guy is even more organic than the other guy

Posted by: Samson151 | March 4, 2011 6:51 AM

Is that what your boy EG says about every no-name DLeague scrub and busted former lottery pick he pays to walk through his revolving door for a cup of coffee?

I suppose they could have continued paying Thornton --- let him get some in some meaningless court time, and perhaps been stuck with him going into next season...

Posted by: Samson151 | March 3, 2011 4:12 PM

You use the word organic a lot -- three times in this thread alone -- did u just learn it? Not to let the facts get in the way of your vocab lessons, but Les Boulez weren't "stuck with him" at all. Quite the contrary -- they had a team option they weren't going to exercise. The Al Thornton criticism around here is really unfounded. He certainly hustled harder than anyone. He maybe shouldn't have been in the mix for starting 3, but that was beyond his control.

And last I looked, Rashard hadn't embarrassed his team and his fans...

Posted by: Samson151 | March 3, 2011 9:00 PM

If you seriously felt personally embarrassed by Gilbert's actions leading up to "the incident" you need to get a life. No whistle, no foul. If anything, you should feel embarrassed that his own GM was lame enough to snitch (after waiting 10 days or so) in a spineless attempt to undo the yet another of his own mistakes. Even more pathetic was EG n Teddy's decision to use the incident they helped fabricate as a smokescreen to blow up the "4th best team in the East" that EG had spent his entire tenure constructing. Get your corny a55 down from your ridiculous EG ethical high horse and smell the shyt: Les Boulez are in the toilet. Again.

Lastly, your cluelessness tells us that you don't watch much basketball, so you likely missed Gilbert's latest fan-embarrassing episode from the 4th quarter last nite: http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=310303014

Enjoy.


Posted by: prescrunk | March 4, 2011 12:08 PM | Report abuse

Oh OK, I saw that Ernie started in June 2003, and assumed they would've made the change before the draft...couldn't remember off the top of my head. Still though, you'd think he could come up with some pieces in those first 4 years (the more recent years being too soon to evaluate fairly). Anyways, he's hurt us in other ways as well. The Gilbert and Blatche extensions not only were crippling, but they were obivously crippling within a year of being made.

Posted by: ejjam2 | March 4, 2011 12:10 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: ejjam2

I'll double-check, I could be wrong, but I was pretty sure Jarvis was an MJ pick.

Posted by: ts35 | March 4, 2011 12:20 PM | Report abuse

You're right, I think, ejjam2. I don't know if Hayes was an EG pick, but he wasn't an MJ pick. EG had been hired by the time of the draft, but I don't know how involved he was. But suffice to say, that pick goes on his tab.

Posted by: ts35 | March 4, 2011 12:23 PM | Report abuse

This is well-trod ground and leads to inevitable cherry-picking, but if you look at all of those drafts, it's hard to pick out obvious mistakes, players he should have taken instead of the ones he did. Rondo in the Pech year stands out, but we needed bigs more than PGs at that point.

I'm not personally a fan of EG's drafts, but he actually has done about average if you look at it in context.

Posted by: ts35

I agree. My problem is that Ernie was picking people who, like Wall said, don't fight/compete, or are athletic, with very limited basketball instinct/I.Q. You know the saying, it is not the size of the dog in the fight, it is the size of the fight in the dog.

Posted by: G-Man11 | March 4, 2011 12:24 PM | Report abuse

I'll double-check, I could be wrong, but I was pretty sure Jarvis was an MJ pick.

Posted by: ts35 | March 4, 2011 12:20 PM

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ernie+grunfeld+wizards

Posted by: prescrunk | March 4, 2011 12:28 PM | Report abuse

At the same, if you compare his draft record to most other GMs you find much the same thing, especially if you're consistently drafting in the middle to end of the first round.

This is well-trod ground and leads to inevitable cherry-picking, but if you look at all of those drafts, it's hard to pick out obvious mistakes, players he should have taken instead of the ones he did. Rondo in the Pech year stands out, but we needed bigs more than PGs at that point.

I'm not personally a fan of EG's drafts, but he actually has done about average if you look at it in context.

Posted by: ts35 | March 4, 2011 11:58 AM

When I went back a took a look, I also did notice that other teams had just as many draft bust and even some players that are not in the league after 4 years or so. One year I wanted the Wiz to draft Julian Wright out of Kansas and I felt if he were there the Wiz would have taken him. I don't know were that guy is these days. With all that in mind my problem with EG stems from a belief I have (right or wrong) that a couple of drafts he mailed it in. I felt he was using the European league as a stash spot for picks like Pech and Veremeenko. Then he starts with the trading picks. I felt like he wasted a few drafts. The pick could have been a bust whomever it would have been but you've got to try. It's an opinion and very well could be wrong but that's my feeling. He is probably an average GM and I hope the wasting of player aquisition and development is over with.

Posted by: gmac78 | March 4, 2011 12:30 PM | Report abuse

"NO SH** Sherlock.. And I do mean Sherlock."

Whatever that means.

"That's why it's his OPINION. An OPINION doesn't need to be a fact."

And yet, when stating his opinion (". . . it was a terrible trade") he prefaced it by claiming it was a fact (but that doesn't change the fact that. . . ), which it clearly wasn't. And when I pointed this out to him, he calmly agreed and admitted his error.

"True, poor wording."

Posted by: ejjam2 | March 4, 2011 11:51 AM

So . . . you were saying?

Posted by: kalo_rama | March 4, 2011 12:34 PM | Report abuse

My father taught me not to argue with women and children.

Posted by: G-Man11 | March 4, 2011 12:37 PM | Report abuse

Still though, you'd think he could come up with some pieces in those first 4 years (the more recent years being too soon to evaluate fairly). Anyways, he's hurt us in other ways as well. The Gilbert and Blatche extensions not only were crippling, but they were obivously crippling within a year of being made.

Well '04 brought us AJ fro Harris
'05's pick was traded before EG arrived (in the deal to get Haywood). Picked up AB in the 2nd.
'06 there was a couple of players taken after Pech (Rondo obviously, Kyle Lowry, Farmar, Shannon Brown). Rondo's the only one anyone would really care about, but safe to call Pech a bust.
'07 There were a couple of nice players taken after Young, but no one I would say is clearly better than Young (Wilson Chandler, Aaron Brooks). McGuire just ahead of MGasol hurts, but there's a reason those guys were there in the 2nd.

Still not seeing the glaring errors in those first 5 years. Pech was a bust, but find me a GM who doesn't have a few of those on his resume, especially at the area where they were picking.

Posted by: ts35 | March 4, 2011 12:38 PM | Report abuse

"Instead of always looking through the posts and snipping what you can find to make a comment about, how about you just state your OPINION for a change."

Sure. It's my opinion that posting an angry frothing rant expressing outrage at something said to another person who, quite clearly took what was said in stride, makes the outraged poster appear rather foolish. It is my further opinion that no one is the least bit surprised by said appearance.

"You kill me with this."

Posted by: kevenjones | March 4, 2011 12:02 PM

Then why aren't you dead yet?

Posted by: kalo_rama | March 4, 2011 12:41 PM | Report abuse

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ernie+grunfeld+wizards

Posted by: prescrunk

EG was hired June 30th. The draft was held June 26th.

http://www.nba.com/wizards/news/grunfeld_hired.html

Posted by: ts35 | March 4, 2011 12:43 PM | Report abuse

With all that in mind my problem with EG stems from a belief I have (right or wrong) that a couple of drafts he mailed it in.
Posted by: gmac78

I don't know if that's true per se, but I sort of agree to the extent that I don't think they've always done as much as they could have with scouting, etc. And I tend to agree with G-Man11 that EG seems to have targeted talent and physical attributes ahead of character, maturity, etc.

Posted by: ts35 | March 4, 2011 12:48 PM | Report abuse

I would have loved for Grunfeld to take Rondo or Paul Milsap instead of Pech. But there's a reason why those guys fell as far as they did. It's disingenuous to rake Grunfeld over the coals for passing on them like he missed something that was obvious. If it was obvious, Rondo would have been a lottery pick and Milsap wouldn't have lasted until the second round. The draft is a crap shoot, especially the deeper into it you go. Sometimes it takes a little luck.

Posted by: kalo_rama | March 4, 2011 12:49 PM | Report abuse

"And I tend to agree with G-Man11 that EG seems to have targeted talent and physical attributes ahead of character, maturity, etc."

Posted by: ts35 | March 4, 2011 12:48 PM

Most GMs do. If they can find a player that combines all of the above, then more to the good. But if it's an either/or choice, talent will almost always trump high citizenship marks, esp. in the upper reaches of the draft.

Posted by: kalo_rama | March 4, 2011 12:54 PM | Report abuse

Most GMs do. If they can find a player that combines all of the above, then more to the good. But if it's an either/or choice, talent will almost always trump high citizenship marks, esp. in the upper reaches of the draft.

Posted by: kalo_rama

Especially since it's usually difficult at best to project the character / maturity of 18-21 year olds. But even within the context of the draft there are usually some shades of difference between players on the character / talent front. In those cases, I feel like EG errs to the side of talent, where some GMs might choose a more 'proven' player. Which is why I felt like this year's draft with a guy like Booker was a (welcome) departure.

Posted by: ts35 | March 4, 2011 1:02 PM | Report abuse

I didn't say citizenship. I said do they compete/hustle. Do they have basketball I.Q. Things of that nature.

Posted by: G-Man11 | March 4, 2011 1:10 PM | Report abuse

Kalo_rama I think the gist of his response is that if you are just nitpicking grammar and wording when you have nothing to add to the converstion...why are you posting?

I'm not saying Grunfeld is one of the worst GMS in terms of drafting, I'm just saying he's below average. He hasn't had any glaring mistakes in the draft, but he hasn't had any marginal success (again that we can fully evaluate) either. Couple that with these bad recent extensions he's been handing out, and I just think it's a good tiem for the Wizards to go in another direction.

Posted by: ejjam2 | March 4, 2011 1:12 PM | Report abuse

I didn't say citizenship. I said do they compete/hustle. Do they have basketball I.Q. Things of that nature.

Posted by: G-Man11

Apologies, character is probably not the right word for what I meant. I meant it more in terms of how they play on the court....play hard, play D, play team ball, etc.

Posted by: ts35 | March 4, 2011 1:13 PM | Report abuse

"Especially since it's usually difficult at best to project the character / maturity of 18-21 year olds. But even within the context of the draft there are usually some shades of difference between players on the character / talent front. In those cases, I feel like EG errs to the side of talent, where some GMs might choose a more 'proven' player. Which is why I felt like this year's draft with a guy like Booker was a (welcome) departure."

Posted by: ts35 | March 4, 2011 1:02 PM

Well, the key phrase there is "shades of difference." If the distinction isn't glaring (i.e., a rap sheet a mile long) or one of only small degrees that can be accounted for by simple age/life experience differences, then, on it's face, going with a younger less mature guy won't seem that big a risk. But when the talent potential is high enough, even obvious character issues will be overlooked or rationalized (see Cousins, DeMarcus).

As for Booker, I'm not sure your reasoning holds because while his maturity and attitude may have factored in, it's becoming increasingly clear that, esp. given where he was drafted at, his talent level is considerable. In fact, looking at the draft board, I don't see any guys taken after him who have a glaringly obvious talent advantage over Booker.

Posted by: kalo_rama | March 4, 2011 1:15 PM | Report abuse

"Kalo_rama I think the gist of his response is that if you are just nitpicking grammar and wording when you have nothing to add to the converstion...why are you posting?"

Posted by: ejjam2 | March 4, 2011 1:12 PM

I'm not "just" nitpicking. I'm nitpicking with a pretty clear and obvious purpose.

Posted by: kalo_rama | March 4, 2011 1:21 PM | Report abuse

I think many of these comments have gotten off track. The main question should be: "How will this injury affect the Wizards' playoff chances?"

:)

Posted by: williamhorkan | March 4, 2011 1:47 PM | Report abuse

"If you seriously felt personally embarrassed by Gilbert's actions leading up to "the incident" you need to get a life. No whistle, no foul. If anything, you should feel embarrassed that his own GM was lame enough to snitch (after waiting 10 days or so) in a spineless attempt to undo the yet another of his own mistakes. Even more pathetic was EG n Teddy's decision to use the incident they helped fabricate as a smokescreen to blow up the "4th best team in the East" that EG had spent his entire tenure constructing. Get your corny a55 down from your ridiculous EG ethical high horse and smell the shyt: Les Boulez are in the toilet. Again."

The real question is, why are you still defending Gilbert Arenas?

I mean, what else must he do to convince you he really doesn't care about the fans, the team, or the city of Washington?

Maybe he did, once upon a time, but even Gilbert admits he's ruined his legacy in DC.

Point being: if he knows it, how come you don't?

And that's the real mystery.

"...your cluelessness tells us that you don't watch much basketball, so you likely missed Gilbert's latest fan-embarrassing episode from the 4th quarter last nite:"

I did see it. Maybe you're not aware that that was the second time Miami had collapsed against Orlando this season. Gil finally hit a couple shots -- that's why they traded for him, right? And he's done little enough to date.

Enjoy.


Posted by: prescrunk

Posted by: Samson151 | March 4, 2011 1:50 PM | Report abuse

As for Booker, I'm not sure your reasoning holds because while his maturity and attitude may have factored in, it's becoming increasingly clear that, esp. given where he was drafted at, his talent level is considerable. In fact, looking at the draft board, I don't see any guys taken after him who have a glaringly obvious talent advantage over Booker.

Posted by: kalo_rama

No, but I did indicate talent and physical characteristics. Booker obviously has exceptional speed as a physical characteristic, but he also has less than ideal height. In previous years, I feel like EG would have picked someone 'longer' as more of an 'upside' pick.

Posted by: ts35 | March 4, 2011 2:08 PM | Report abuse

That's sad that Flip that his mother passed while he was on the plane back here. That's tough.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | March 4, 2011 2:25 PM | Report abuse

That's sad that Flip that his mother passed while he was on the plane back here. That's tough.

Posted by: SDMDTSU | March 4, 2011 2:25 PM | Report abuse

Yeah that truly does suck. he missed her last moments trying to get back to this sad excuse for a pro team. That should carry some weight with the guys. He didn't want to miss two games in a row. Stay up Flipper.

Posted by: lilhollywood10 | March 4, 2011 2:34 PM | Report abuse

"No, but I did indicate talent and physical characteristics. Booker obviously has exceptional speed as a physical characteristic, but he also has less than ideal height. In previous years, I feel like EG would have picked someone 'longer' as more of an 'upside' pick."

Posted by: ts35 | March 4, 2011 2:08 PM

And what evidence is this "feeling" based on? Because I don't see much (if anything) in his draft history to support it.

Posted by: kalo_rama | March 4, 2011 2:43 PM | Report abuse

And what evidence is this "feeling" based on? Because I don't see much (if anything) in his draft history to support it.

Posted by: kalo_rama

Gestalt. Which is why I said 'feeling' instead of 'fact', 'evidence', yada yada.

Of course, there's not really anything in his history to refute it, either.

Just my opinion, looking back at a lot of the types of players he has chosen to bring in, along with comments he has made.

Posted by: ts35 | March 4, 2011 2:52 PM | Report abuse

In previous years, I feel like EG would have picked someone 'longer' as more of an 'upside' pick."
Posted by: ts35 | March 4, 2011 2:08 PM

And what evidence is this "feeling" based on? Because I don't see much (if anything) in his draft history to support it.

Posted by: kalo_rama

See McGee, Javale.

Posted by: ejjam2 | March 4, 2011 4:34 PM | Report abuse

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